Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16842 times)

Offline gozalim

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okay so what is your answer to that?
evidently there's an ענין ע"פ קבלה to wear white on shabbos. while the misnagdim felt that yiddishkeit is the province of the elite few (which their own גזרה left an exception for), the chassidim found yiddishkeit to be מורשה קהלת יעקב.
(I speak only from the paragraph cited)

Offline aygart

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evidently there's an ענין ע"פ קבלה to wear white on shabbos. while the misnagdim felt that yiddishkeit is the province of the elite few (which their own גזרה left an exception for), the chassidim found yiddishkeit to be מורשה קהלת יעקב.
(I speak only form the paragraph cited)
So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
and has no connection to any of the hisnagdus.
the wearing of white continued for a few generations after the gr"a, and (at least in chabad) ended around the same as the shtreimel (for chassidim). a combination between ignoring חיצוניות and a dire poverty where you were lucky to have clothes in one piece at all...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 01:19:41 PM by gozalim »

Offline aygart

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and has no connection to any of the hisnagdus.
the wearing of white continued for a few generations after the gr"a, and (at least in chabad) ended around the same as the shtreimel (for chassidim). a combination between ignoring חיצוניות and a dire poverty where you were lucky to have clothes in one piece at all...
How do you know?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
Don't some chassidim still where white shabbos? תו"א?

Offline aygart

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Don't some chassidim still where white shabbos? תו"א?
No they wear gold on shabbos. Either way, what difference does that make. There are still some chassidim dancing wildly in the streets too.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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Where was there an assertion that wearing white was against halachah? and if there's nothing wrong with it other than diluting elitism, why should chassidim have been נתפעל? moreover, on the general issue, the chassidim have maintained their position on the universality of yiddishkeit, with a vengeance. so it'll be a hard sell that this one thing "chassidim switched to maintaining halacha, thanks to the opposition"

Really?!

Offline aygart

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Where was there an assertion that wearing white was against halachah? and if there's nothing wrong with it other than diluting elitism, why should chassidim have been נתפעל? moreover, on the general issue, the chassidim have maintained their position on the universality of yiddishkeit, with a vengeance. so it'll be a hard sell that this one thing "chassidim switched to maintaining halacha, thanks to the opposition"

Really?!
NO THEY HAVE NOT. The whole idea of dynasties of rebbes is the opposite of that.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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NO THEY HAVE NOT. The whole idea of dynasties of rebbes is the opposite of that.
yet they where doing that from day one, not in response to opposition. that was actually part of the opposition.

Offline aygart

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yet they where doing that from day one, not in response to opposition. that was actually part of the opposition.
Really? How many of the talmidim of the Besht  have grandchildren which are dynasties?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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Really? How many of the talmidim of the Besht  have grandchildren which are dynasties?
so let me get this straight: the institution of a rebbe, which the misnagdim opposed, was turned into a hereditary dynasty, in respect for the misnagdic demand for elitism?

(and this was the positive effect of the hisnagdus?)

Offline aygart

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so let me get this straight: the institution of a rebbe, which the misnagdim opposed, was turned into a hereditary dynasty, in respect for the misnagdic demand for elitism?

(and this was the positive effect of the hisnagdus?)
The point is that there HAVE been changes. Now YOU answer. Are you off the opinion that chassidus did not change over the last 250 years. You guys need to stop vacillating bank and forth. Yes or no?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 02:11:56 PM by gozalim »

Offline aygart

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We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
still refusing to answer.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline Boruch999

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We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.

How can that be proven wrong?  Or right, for that matter?  Do you have access to an alternate universe where there was no opposition and chassidus is the same as it is today in this universe?  It also can not be proven or dis-proven whether or not chassidus has shaped misnagdus with out the aid of an alternate universe.  However it can be said that they were both very likely affected by each other.