Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16847 times)

Offline ben89

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #225 on: June 18, 2017, 07:19:55 PM »
I've been looking up various sources since this thread was recently active, and came across this, or in it's original here, or complete pdf of chapter 4 here. Was this the book @ben89 was referring to here?

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):



Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

As a side note, while not rejecting it vehemently as Mondshine, Etkes does tend to doubt the extent of the alleged content of the exchange between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan.

As I have stated earlier. There's little doubt that the meeting between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan happened. It is also possible that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about a benefit that came about from the Cherem (or the wars against chassidim/chassidus), however to claim that the type of benefit is as brought down in the מקור ברוך, ignores the reality of what תורת החסידות is, and of how events unfolded. A more likely explanation of the benefit would be something along the lines described here in a letter from the Alter Rebbe (quoted in יחיד בדורו, pg. 119):


(I hope @aygart is satisfied with the fact that I have exclusively quoted non-Lubavitch sources in this post).
no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #226 on: June 18, 2017, 08:50:09 PM »
no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html
Does he write anything that negates my assertion that

Quote
Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

If yes, please post images or quotes.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html
Trying to search for that book online, I came across this (written by the Novominsker?)

Of note is the attached quote.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 10:47:19 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ben89

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Trying to search for that book online, I came across this (written by the Novomisker?)

Of note is the attached quote.
yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance

Offline ExGingi

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yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance
And while you're at it, please address some substance as per
Does he write anything that negates my assertion that
Quote
Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".
If yes, please post images or quotes.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance
Seems to be some testimony out there denying the purported haskamah of R Chaim Kaminetzky quoted here by a descendant of the Gr"a.

I managed to get my hands on a scanned PDF copy of חסידים ומתנגדים by Wilensky. It's over 740 pages long, contains plenty of documents and is well annotated. I might post some images of interest here.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 11:41:31 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

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I've been looking up various sources since this thread was recently active, and came across this, or in it's original here, or complete pdf of chapter 4 here. Was this the book @ben89 was referring to here?

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):



Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

As a side note, while not rejecting it vehemently as Mondshine, Etkes does tend to doubt the extent of the alleged content of the exchange between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan.

As I have stated earlier. There's little doubt that the meeting between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan happened. It is also possible that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about a benefit that came about from the Cherem (or the wars against chassidim/chassidus), however to claim that the type of benefit is as brought down in the מקור ברוך, ignores the reality of what תורת החסידות is, and of how events unfolded. A more likely explanation of the benefit would be something along the lines described here in a letter from the Alter Rebbe (quoted in יחיד בדורו, pg. 119):


(I hope @aygart is satisfied with the fact that I have exclusively quoted non-Lubavitch sources in this post).
I am not going to continue the circles here but I still do not see how my question was addressed.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

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Seems to be some testimony out there denying the purported haskamah of R Chaim Kaminsky quoted here by a descendant of the Gr"a.

I managed to get my hands on a scanned PDF copy of חסידים ומתנגדים by Wilensky. It's over 740 pages long, contains plenty of documents and is well annotated. I might post some images of interest here.
Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline gozalim

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Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
coming from him that's saying something...

Offline ExGingi

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I am not going to continue the circles here but I still do not see how my question was addressed.
Not sure which question you are referring to. The last question (indicated by a question mark) that I see in your posts, was most definitely answered by me in the most traditional Jewish way of answering questions.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 10:17:48 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Not sure which question you are referring to. The last question (indicated by a mark) that I see in your posts, was most definitely answered by me in the most traditional Jewish way of answering questions.
There is only one which would mean going in circles.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
Are you talking about Wilensky's book or Eliach's?

I have no problem objectively reading Etkes or Mondshine, and applying my critical thinking in filtering anyone's slanted writing.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Are you talking about Wilensky's book or Eliach's?

I have no problem objectively reading Etkes or Mondshine, and applying my critical thinking in filtering anyone's slanted writing.
Wilensky
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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Wilensky
I obviously have not read it yet, but have skimmed through it, including reading some of his annotations. I find it to be a valuable source for anyone wanting to objectively analyze the history, as it contains the most comprehensive compendium of relevant documents (at least on the side of מתנגדים).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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In connection to today's shiur Chumash, which starts with "בנים אתם", comes today's Hayom Yom:



P.S. despite several requests, no one has come forth to lend me Eliach's book (nor did anyone post R' Chaim Kanievsky's purported הסכמה).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan