Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 12754 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2017, 05:00:56 PM »
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline MeirS

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2017, 03:49:12 AM »
theres something called a mumar in my language whether you like it or not. Also there's no way in the world I'm ever learning chasidus. This being a classic example of twisting things the wrong way which end up contradicting chazal but hey it doesn't matter because it's chassidus

Just catching up and came across this. I do feel that this post is somewhat degrading a part of Torah that Gedolim bigger than me and you in previous generations endorsed and I wouldn't start up with such things but that's your choice.

I haven't read the article that ExGingi posted a link to nor have I noticed a response from you but I'll just leave you with a question.

Is a Mumar, a bad Jew or is he a good Jew, a son of G-D, a son of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov who has a holy Neshama who has unfortunately done bad things?

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.

Offline yelped

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2017, 10:55:22 AM »
Just catching up and came across this. I do feel that this post is somewhat degrading a part of Torah that Gedolim bigger than me and you in previous generations endorsed and I wouldn't start up with such things but that's your choice.

I haven't read the article that ExGingi posted a link to nor have I noticed a response from you but I'll just leave you with a question.

Is a Mumar, a bad Jew or is he a good Jew, a son of G-D, a son of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov who has a holy Neshama who has unfortunately done bad things?

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.
Thank you.

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2017, 11:15:28 AM »

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.

No true Scotsman
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline yelped

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2017, 11:37:26 AM »

Offline MeirS

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2017, 11:39:14 AM »
No true Scotsman
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.

As for specific examples, I'm not going to go through the whole Chassidus and all Ma'amorei Chazal to iron out that which people conceive as discrepancies.
If there is something specific which you see as discrepancy, feel free to post it here (or maybe better in a dedicated thread) and I'm sure someone will able to explain.

Offline MeirS

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2017, 11:39:49 AM »

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2017, 12:23:32 PM »
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.
"The premise has to be true because otherwise MY premise may be wrong"

I don't know enough background in chassidus to have a definitive opinion here but what you are saying is a logical fallacy.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline MeirS

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2017, 01:22:35 PM »
"The premise has to be true because otherwise MY premise may be wrong"

I don't know enough background in chassidus to have a definitive opinion here but what you are saying is a logical fallacy.
One question.

Is Chassidus part of Torah or is Chassidus not part of Torah?

Many people have a hard time facing this question head on, but let's be intellectuality honest.

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2017, 01:29:06 PM »
One question.

Is Chassidus part of Torah or is Chassidus not part of Torah?

Many people have a hard time facing this question head on, but let's be intellectuality honest.
It is a fair assumption that it is a part, but he is obviously questioning that. Once there seems to be a contradiction between chassidus and the torah one of the possibilities is that it is not a part. I understand where you get your premise from but that does not require anyone to accept it without proof.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ben89

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2017, 04:13:50 PM »
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.

As for specific examples, I'm not going to go through the whole Chassidus and all Ma'amorei Chazal to iron out that which people conceive as discrepancies.
If there is something specific which you see as discrepancy, feel free to post it here (or maybe better in a dedicated thread) and I'm sure someone will able to explain.
im not really interested in getting a beating here for my issues so don't kill me for what I'm about to say. With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party? Isn't there a passuk that says that you need to learn day and night? Vhamevin yavin. The list goes on but that's just the beginning. Hey listen there's a whole biography on the gra which has a designated chapter for his fights against chassidus. Then again they might not sell it in their stores because they don't want anyone to know it ever happened

Offline Brian93

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2017, 04:18:59 PM »


With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party?

??

Offline as2

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2017, 04:19:46 PM »

??
I'm assuming he's referring to "nittel nacht"
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline chinagel

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2017, 04:27:52 PM »
im not really interested in getting a beating here for my issues so don't kill me for what I'm about to say. With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party? Isn't there a passuk that says that you need to learn day and night? Vhamevin yavin. The list goes on but that's just the beginning. Hey listen there's a whole biography on the gra which has a designated chapter for his fights against chassidus. Then again they might not sell it in their stores because they don't want anyone to know it ever happened
why is that chassidus? the chasam sofer and many other non chasidim write about it IINM. to be fair, i dont understand it nor is it my minhag either.

Offline ben89

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2017, 04:29:53 PM »
why is that chassidus? the chasam sofer and many other non chasidim write about it IINM. to be fair, i dont understand it nor is it my minhag either.
i hear. That's just comes to mind because they actually go that way.