Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 12652 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2017, 11:44:08 AM »
You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.

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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2017, 11:46:36 AM »
You said:

To which I responded:That response translates as: "your response is befitting the title of this thread" (unless this is moved by mods to a thread with a different title).


But now that you have restated your comment saying:
I understand that you mean וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ, but I think you are giving the cherem too much credit here. Chassidus stands on its own merit, and is what the aibershter gave עם ישראל at the time it was needed.

Maybe, but we do not know what chassidus would look like had there been no cherem. Some aspects of chassidus may have ended up much worse than they did. Open up your mind a bit.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2017, 11:49:10 AM »
+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.
How could he have been a founder? He was commonly referred to as החסיד ר' אליהו, so must have predated him.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2017, 11:50:05 AM »
How could he have been a founder?
Because he kept chassidus from going off the deep end.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2017, 12:22:26 PM »
Because he kept chassidus from going off the deep end.

My 5 year old daughter is going to tell me soon how much she helped my wife when they baked challah together.

Please provide one historic example of how Chassidus changed course, whether in custom, philosophy, ideology - anything - following the cherem. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm frankly quite ignorant on the subject. But you're arguing that others have to open their mind and using quite strong language (off the deep end) seemingly based purely on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to back up claims.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »
My 5 year old daughter is going to tell me soon how much she helped my wife when they baked challah together.

Please provide one historic example of how Chassidus changed course, whether in custom, philosophy, ideology - anything - following the cherem. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm frankly quite ignorant on the subject. But you're arguing that others have to open their mind and using quite strong language (off the deep end) seemingly based purely on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to back up claims.
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2017, 01:13:24 PM »
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2017, 01:20:45 PM »
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
If you look back you will see that I was replying specifically to this.
and still stand by my assertion that the benefit of over 200 years of Chassidus disproves some of those (especially casting some of them on this generation).
That we cannot tell anything based on the last 200 years since the cherem itself may have effected how those 200 years turned out. We cannot disprove anything based on the 200 years without knowing how they would have been without the cherem.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2017, 01:22:54 PM »
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2017, 01:29:12 PM »
We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.

What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2017, 01:30:56 PM »
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2017, 01:36:44 PM »
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
I do not know enough about it to give an opinion, but I would recommend not basing your judgment solely on chassidic sources.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2017, 01:38:44 PM »
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.

+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline LoLo

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2017, 01:40:32 PM »
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
PLEASE.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2017, 01:42:50 PM »
PLEASE.
I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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