Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 13230 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2017, 01:53:59 PM »
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?



That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)
[/color]He was also concerned about the concept of the rebbe (as the leader of each Hassidic sect was called) because he felt that the Hassidic concept that a person elevates himself spiritually simply by "attaching" himself to a holy person (a rebbe) was an idolatrous idea.
[/color]Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.
[/color]Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.

There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?



« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:07:50 PM by aygart »
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Online jj1000

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I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

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Online ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2017, 02:03:45 PM »
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?


Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Online ExGingi

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Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

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Nah. Doesn't elicit enough interest, and isn't a proper description of the conversation. Needs to be more intriguing/controversial. Also, don't forget that this discussion started with התנגדות, so that needs to be in the title.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
See my edit above. Either way, I am not discussing whether the GRA was properly informed as I do not have enough background knowledge. My point is that if the cherem caused blue or green instead of red then history does not show that the cherem was misplaced. Of course that is conjecture because we do not know where chassidus would be without the cherem.

see here for more discussion on page 113
https://books.google.com/books?id=11f9xBbOBBEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=triumph+of+survival&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmmviWrrHUAhUHLsAKHZ71An0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Offline Yehuda57

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In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?



That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?
Chassidus was in full swing. If the cherem was purely preventative, it should have said so. It wasn't. It was about what was happening already. If it was at all effective in "taming" chassidus, you should be able to point to at least one teeny tiny little change, even if the changes were mostly preventative.

You make as if we have no idea how those lines would have diverged. We have an idea, the ideologies spelled out their vision for those lines.

We now have two hundred years of history to see how it played out. You're going to have to do better than the *possibility* of preventive effects.

*this was written prior to your edit
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Online ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2017, 02:28:45 PM »
Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)

Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

The cherem listed I think seven specific items and was not based on predictions for the future.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

That needs to be understood in the context of the prevailing attitude of the time that kabbalah was not appropriate for the masses based upon the experience with Shabsai Tzvi. This was not a prediction regarding chassidus but rather the basis of the prevailing attitude that kabbala was not for the masses
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Online ExGingi

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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2017, 02:38:24 PM »
If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.
Ahem...

There are different ways of attaching to a Rebbe. I wonder how the Gr"a would feel about how some in the Yeshivish world relate to Gedolim.

Also, among leader of Chassidus there was disagreement about this. That, and some of the points listed in whatever I found of זמיר עריצים וחרבות צורים that seem to relate more to the הנהגה of ר' אברהם קאליסקער and his followers (there was much opposition to those ways (definitely in Chabad)) unfortunately brought about a serious rift.

Changes of the siddur - do you daven from סידור הגר"א or from נוסח אשכנז. Are you familiar with the changes between the two. See the link to Mondshine's research for a listing of changes that the Gr"a made, that even his talmidim don't follow.

Shchita knives? CMIIAW, but I believe EVERYONE uses סכינים מלוטשים nowadays.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ben89

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Nothing to do with chasidus...I forgot another funny thing that a chassidishe cheder teaches the kids parshas vayigash. Yaakov sent yehuda to goshen to שטעל אבעק א שול מיט א מקוה. I guess a yeshiva in their terms means a Shul with a mikvah.

Offline aygart

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Chassidus was in full swing. If the cherem was purely preventative, it should have said so. It wasn't. It was about what was happening already. If it was at all effective in "taming" chassidus, you should be able to point to at least one teeny tiny little change, even if the changes were mostly preventative.

You make as if we have no idea how those lines would have diverged. We have an idea, the ideologies spelled out their vision for those lines.

We now have two hundred years of history to see how it played out. You're going to have to do better than the *possibility* of preventive effects.

*this was written prior to your edit
Their vision may be different than how it is or even was practiced. Is chassidus practiced now exactly the way it was at the time? Is there more less or the same amount of jumping around and dancing during davening? Is there more leass or the same focus on limud hatorah?

Also partially addressed by my edit.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:48:46 PM by aygart »
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Offline aygart

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Ahem...

There are different ways of attaching to a Rebbe. I wonder how the Gr"a would feel about how some in the Yeshivish world relate to Gedolim.

I don't wonder. He would certainly disapprove.

Changes of the siddur - do you daven from סידור הגר"א or from נוסח אשכנז. Are you familiar with the changes between the two. See the link to Mondshine's research for a listing of changes that the Gr"a made, that even his talmidim don't follow.
I daven from a sfard siddur

Shchita knives? CMIIAW, but I believe EVERYONE uses סכינים מלוטשים nowadays.
Rav Belsky said many times that the difference is currently irrelelvant with todays metals, but either way I think it had less to do with the actual knife than with the change from tradition.
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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2017, 02:52:42 PM »
Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.
Which I most definitely did, and continue to attempt. As evidenced by:

Only thing I found is http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf which quotes it on page 10 (page 5 of the PDF).

All being said, we might eventually agree or disagree about history. The question is (and was in the title I proposed to the moderators) whether it has any relevance today, or is any opposition to Chassidus or Chassidim just thinly veiled שנאת חנם?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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The question is (and was in the title I proposed to the moderators) whether it has any relevance today, or is any opposition to Chassidus or Chassidim just thinly veiled שנאת חנם?
I don't think it has relevance in most of current chassidus other than some of the ideological aspects of it such as the discussions regarding tzimtzum and the relations with a rebbe. It does possibly still apply to parts of Breslov and maybe the more extreme parts of Lubavitch from how I have heard some groups being described but don't know if they actually exist. I am not sure what specific opposition you are referring to.
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Offline jye

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Mekor Boruch quoting the Tzemach Tzedek that the Gra saved chassidus
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:10:09 AM by jye »