Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 43537 times)

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »
My 5 year old daughter is going to tell me soon how much she helped my wife when they baked challah together.

Please provide one historic example of how Chassidus changed course, whether in custom, philosophy, ideology - anything - following the cherem. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm frankly quite ignorant on the subject. But you're arguing that others have to open their mind and using quite strong language (off the deep end) seemingly based purely on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to back up claims.
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2017, 01:13:24 PM »
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2017, 01:20:45 PM »
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
If you look back you will see that I was replying specifically to this.
and still stand by my assertion that the benefit of over 200 years of Chassidus disproves some of those (especially casting some of them on this generation).
That we cannot tell anything based on the last 200 years since the cherem itself may have effected how those 200 years turned out. We cannot disprove anything based on the 200 years without knowing how they would have been without the cherem.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2017, 01:22:54 PM »
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2017, 01:29:12 PM »
We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.

What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2017, 01:30:56 PM »
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2017, 01:36:44 PM »
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
I do not know enough about it to give an opinion, but I would recommend not basing your judgment solely on chassidic sources.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2017, 01:38:44 PM »
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.

+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2017, 01:40:32 PM »
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
PLEASE.

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2017, 01:42:50 PM »
PLEASE.
I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2017, 01:53:59 PM »
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?



That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)
[/color]He was also concerned about the concept of the rebbe (as the leader of each Hassidic sect was called) because he felt that the Hassidic concept that a person elevates himself spiritually simply by "attaching" himself to a holy person (a rebbe) was an idolatrous idea.
[/color]Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.
[/color]Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.

There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?



« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:07:50 PM by aygart »
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Offline jj1000

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I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2017, 02:03:45 PM »
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?


Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
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Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

Better?
Nah. Doesn't elicit enough interest, and isn't a proper description of the conversation. Needs to be more intriguing/controversial. Also, don't forget that this discussion started with התנגדות, so that needs to be in the title.
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Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
See my edit above. Either way, I am not discussing whether the GRA was properly informed as I do not have enough background knowledge. My point is that if the cherem caused blue or green instead of red then history does not show that the cherem was misplaced. Of course that is conjecture because we do not know where chassidus would be without the cherem.

see here for more discussion on page 113
https://books.google.com/books?id=11f9xBbOBBEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=triumph+of+survival&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmmviWrrHUAhUHLsAKHZ71An0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Offline Yehuda57

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In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?



That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?
Chassidus was in full swing. If the cherem was purely preventative, it should have said so. It wasn't. It was about what was happening already. If it was at all effective in "taming" chassidus, you should be able to point to at least one teeny tiny little change, even if the changes were mostly preventative.

You make as if we have no idea how those lines would have diverged. We have an idea, the ideologies spelled out their vision for those lines.

We now have two hundred years of history to see how it played out. You're going to have to do better than the *possibility* of preventive effects.

*this was written prior to your edit

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2017, 02:28:45 PM »
Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)

Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

The cherem listed I think seven specific items and was not based on predictions for the future.
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Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

That needs to be understood in the context of the prevailing attitude of the time that kabbalah was not appropriate for the masses based upon the experience with Shabsai Tzvi. This was not a prediction regarding chassidus but rather the basis of the prevailing attitude that kabbala was not for the masses
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2017, 02:38:24 PM »
If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.
Ahem...

There are different ways of attaching to a Rebbe. I wonder how the Gr"a would feel about how some in the Yeshivish world relate to Gedolim.

Also, among leader of Chassidus there was disagreement about this. That, and some of the points listed in whatever I found of זמיר עריצים וחרבות צורים that seem to relate more to the הנהגה of ר' אברהם קאליסקער and his followers (there was much opposition to those ways (definitely in Chabad)) unfortunately brought about a serious rift.

Changes of the siddur - do you daven from סידור הגר"א or from נוסח אשכנז. Are you familiar with the changes between the two. See the link to Mondshine's research for a listing of changes that the Gr"a made, that even his talmidim don't follow.

Shchita knives? CMIIAW, but I believe EVERYONE uses סכינים מלוטשים nowadays.
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Offline ben89

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Nothing to do with chasidus...I forgot another funny thing that a chassidishe cheder teaches the kids parshas vayigash. Yaakov sent yehuda to goshen to שטעל אבעק א שול מיט א מקוה. I guess a yeshiva in their terms means a Shul with a mikvah.