Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 43561 times)

Offline chinagel

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Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2017, 06:43:50 PM »
Well the "current" one is so he wasn't that wrong....
If you look at what happened with the moshiachnics of chabad and breslov you see what could have happened to all chasidus without the cherem



leave that conversation to the thread already existing please

Offline aygart

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it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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or could have eventually led to that.

Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).

Was he right or wrong?

Offline zh cohen

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(didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)

I was not the one who brought ST into this discussion.

Offline aygart

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Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).
That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.

And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.

Offline aygart

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And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.

Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.

Offline zh cohen

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That is irrelevant to the conversation.

Except that the Gra tasked his talmid to write a book (Nefesh Ha'chaim) explaining his shita, and it ended up agreeing (or being closer to) the shita of Chabad.

Offline zh cohen

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we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?

You might want to read up.on the difference between a "potential" Moshiach and a Moshiach sheker

Offline Yammer

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You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.

Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.

Offline aro123

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Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.
That is thanks to the cherem

Offline aygart

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We are going in circles here. Time to exit.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline zh cohen

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That is thanks to the cherem

Based on what are you making this statement? What changes of course can you point to that took place after the cherem?

Offline zh cohen

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Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.

I agree with everything you said here. (In fact I said most of what you said in different words throughout this thread).

Others said that to claim that the Gra had false/misleading information is derogatory, and I disagreed with them.

Offline ExGingi

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He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.
Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.


I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline elit

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest

Offline Yehuda57

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
Lol, you're cute.

Offline Yammer

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Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.




I stand Corrected. My explanation would only apply to the first one.