Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 43570 times)

Offline gozalim

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regarding the myth that the cherem "tempered" chassidus:
it originates in the מקור ברוך's fiction of a biography and propogated by the likes of מכבדי דעת תורה like assaf and his ilk.

Mondshine documented the discrepancies of the מקור ברוך in an academic article (probably in יגדיל תורה)decades before the ad-hominem piece on shtruem.net (I'll post it when I find it)

ETA: יגדיל תורה (נ"י) שנה א' חוב' יב (אלול תשל"ז) ע' מב-מג
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 02:43:32 AM by gozalim »

Offline a mirrer

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
I heard from someone in la who Reb simcha wasserman told him that the chafetz Chaim said to Reb elchanan that now I hindsight we see that the cherem was a mistake

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Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chaim0m

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Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
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Offline gozalim

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Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
he makes the same mistake of taking the shturem.net article seriously. Ignore that version and read the יגדיל תורה version.
And even Henkin, when he's done, concedes the evidence is against the story act just suggest we accept the story on authority

Offline chaim0m

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What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
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Offline gozalim

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What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
if the meeting has happened, but the reported contents are a proven fabrication, then there's no reason to believe the צ"צ endorsed the nonsense about the התנגדות.
And that's the 'source' of the myth

Offline chaim0m

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I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
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Offline gozalim

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I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
אה"נ


( R' Y. Mondshine A"H is not the topic of this thread,  so let's not go there now - he worked in the Hebrew University as a librarian and is a known researcher).

Not being familiar with the quote, but being familiar with some history, and my (inside) view of Chassidus (Chabad), the quote seems odd (to say the least). Which is why I was OK quoting not only Mondshine, but bringing it from a certain website that tends to represent only its owner's and editor's point of view, rather than a broader spectrum which exists within the Chabad-Lubavitch community.
...

I don't know what the Tzemach Tzedek said, I wasn't there and I haven't seen any corroboration. Is it possible that credit was given to the רדיפות וחרמות? Possible, as I said before וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ including the legal status vis-a-vis the Russian government.  But the specifics (which might be an interpretation) saying that Chassidus might have gone "too far" just don't make sense.
Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.

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אה"נ

Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.
Racism?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

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Racism?

Chassidim are sometimes called "black"

Online aygart

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Chassidim are sometimes called "black"
So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

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So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics

Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?

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Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?
Maybe, but didn't someone say earlier that now everyone is the same anyhow?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
Hey, wasn't the Gr"a called החסיד?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chaim0m

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Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
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Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.
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It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.


That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
okay so what is your answer to that?
Feelings don't care about your facts