Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16849 times)

Online aygart

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We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
Says the one who is naive enough to believe that the vociferous opposition had no effect at all on them.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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The point is that there HAVE been changes. Now YOU answer. Are you off the opinion that chassidus did not change over the last 250 years. You guys need to stop vacillating bank and forth. Yes or no?
Has תורת החסידות changed?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Has תורת החסידות changed?
Now you are limiting the conversation very significantly to an aspect I am unable to discuss. Why are you limiting it like that?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Online jj1000

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Offline chinagel

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Someone needs to make a wiki, with a lot of circles in it.
the circles in @aygart 's triangle or vice versa?

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I have been in one place the whole time.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chinagel

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I have been in one place the whole time.
just a math joke. :)

Online aygart

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The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chinagel

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math is no joke.
some peoples math is pretty funny.

Offline ExGingi

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the circles in @aygart 's triangle or vice versa?
ALOL
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Now you are limiting the conversation very significantly to an aspect I am unable to discuss. Why are you limiting it like that?
Because that's what it really boils down to, if you want to discuss whether the חרם had any merit, or if it "saved chassidus...".

If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Because that's what it really boils down to, if you want to discuss whether the חרם had any merit, or if it "saved chassidus...".

If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.
It was definitely a confluence of many factors. Some of which were the ways the adherents were behaving as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there. There is likely less of a focus on the "tamid bisimcha" aspects of chassidus than there had been. There are likely similar differences in the "jumping around during davening" which were direct results of the philosophy and not collateral. Many of the other aspects were also part and parcel such as their changing the siddur and leaving the communal shul. Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline AsherO

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Someone needs to make a wiki, with a lot of circles in it.

Paging MMS :D
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Offline ExGingi

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It was definitely a confluence of many factors. Some of which were the ways the adherents were behaving as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there. There is likely less of a focus on the "tamid bisimcha" aspects of chassidus than there had been. There are likely similar differences in the "jumping around during davening" which were direct results of the philosophy and not collateral. Many of the other aspects were also part and parcel such as their changing the siddur and leaving the communal shul. Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch.
WOW.

Talk about
still refusing to answer.
and drawing smoke circles.

I have a lot of respect for you, but for some reason on this topic there's something there that seems to be creating a barrier for you, not allowing you to admit certain things.

Let's try to analyze this OBJECTIVELY:

I said:
If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.

Notice: I deliberately did not say "if Chassidus..." but was rather talking about an abstract concept of dealing with a philosophy and its followers. You can apply this analysis to any philosophy throughout (Jewish) history.

And now, looking OBJECTIVELY at Chassidus - as it is defined by תורת החסידות - the actual philosophy, and applying my analysis above, is there any reason to believe that the חרם "saved chassidus from..." or that it had any justification?

You then go into particulars, some of which I have previously addressed, and most are totally irrelevant. I will not respond again to those now, as I don't want to mellow the point made above and veer off topic. But in doing so, you go back to saying:
Quote
as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there

and

Quote
there can be future change to it as well

While you resented when I said that we have the benefit of 200+ years of retrospect, saying it was all based on contemporary facts, and not on future predictions. So which one is it?

Lastly, you also say:
Quote
Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch
Which I believe is totally untrue. Kindly prove otherwise. And please don't bring up announcing יחי, as no-one has that as part of the siddur or נוסח התפילה.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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I have been in one place the whole time.
Except when you weren't as pointed out above. (חרם based on predictions or only on several specific facts).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan