Court Orders Baby's Death

[Boruch999]

I guess I'm saying that having doctors and courts deciding when to stop life support measures is wrong.
For Jews guidelines should come from Talmidei chachomim and Rabbis familiar with the issues. 
Questions:
1) At what point do we say medical intervention is futile? At that point, are we mechuyav (supposed to ) abandon further intervention- or are we allowed to keep trying?
2) What criteria do we use? "quality of life" vs importance to the community vs cost?
ie Who gets to decide when a person's life has no meaning? Who gets to choose who's important enough to spend money on?
3)Does the patient's own wishes take precedence or do others get to decide?  What about pain- does that change the equation?

So you are agreeing with @aygart and myself.

[Dawie]

I guess I'm saying that having doctors and courts deciding when to stop life support measures is wrong.
For Jews guidelines should come from Talmidei chachomim and Rabbis familiar with the issues. 
Questions:
1) At what point do we say medical intervention is futile? At that point, are we mechuyav (supposed to ) abandon further intervention- or are we allowed to keep trying?
2) What criteria do we use? "quality of life" vs importance to the community vs cost?
ie Who gets to decide when a person's life has no meaning? Who gets to choose who's important enough to spend money on?
3)Does the patient's own wishes take precedence or do others get to decide?  What about pain- does that change the equation?

http://www.chayimaruchim.com/

[ckmk47]

My understanding of halacha:
"Quality of life" has no meaning.  All life is of value. An aged Rabbi, a newborn, a IV drug abuser with AIDS.
When a person's underlying disease will, in natural circumstances, kill him shortly and medicine has no know cure, a person does not have to be treated - but may be treated if he wants.
Family has no say in when to stop treatment - only the patient.  He will know when the pain is too great and the bother too much.  (Sometimes family is tired out from the ordeal and/or can't bear to see their loved one in such pain.)
Treatment includes medical interventions such as putting on a respirator or doing a procedure.  It does NOT include giving fluid and nutrition - these are to be continued to the end. Antibiotics  and other medication has varied pesaks - depending on th eRav and circumstance.

[aygart]

My understanding of halacha:
"Quality of life" has no meaning.  All life is of value. An aged Rabbi, a newborn, a IV drug abuser with AIDS.
When a person's underlying disease will, in natural circumstances, kill him shortly and medicine has no know cure, a person does not have to be treated - but may be treated if he wants.
Family has no say in when to stop treatment - only the patient.  He will know when the pain is too great and the bother too much.  (Sometimes family is tired out from the ordeal and/or can't bear to see their loved one in such pain.)
Treatment includes medical interventions such as putting on a respirator or doing a procedure.  It does NOT include giving fluid and nutrition - these are to be continued to the end. Antibiotics  and other medication has varied pesaks - depending on th eRav and circumstance.

This is very oversimplified and does not even take into account the possibility of an unconscious patient.

[ckmk47]

This is very oversimplified and does not even take into account the possibility of an unconscious patient.

yes. I meant to highlight some points in which halacha is decidedly different than the prevailing worldly wisdom.


 

[ckmk47]

This is very oversimplified and does not even take into account the possibility of an unconscious patient.

As far as an unconscious patient:
"Quality of life" has no meaning
Family has no say in when to stop treatment
giving fluid and nutrition - these are to be continued to the end


In the USA these decisions will be made by the family and/or doctor.  The family should consult a Rav who specialized in medical halacha.

[aygart]

As far as an unconscious patient:
"Quality of life" has no meaning
Family has no say in when to stop treatment
giving fluid and nutrition - these are to be continued to the end


In the USA these decisions will be made by the family and/or doctor.  The family should consult a Rav who specialized in medical halacha.

Various aspects of this and the above are incorrect according to many poskim.

[yitzf]

http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

Why is there a court process?
When parents do not agree about a child’s future treatment, it is standard legal process to ask the courts to make a decision. This is what happened in Charlie’s case.

??

[as2]

I saw this in a bit of a different light. My understanding was that the court stepped in to protect the child from his parents. While I might not agree with their decision, I can hear why a court would get involved regarding ones mistreatment of their children. From the way I see it, it's not about letting him die as much as it's about not abusing your child.

[Dan]

I saw this in a bit of a different light. My understanding was that the court stepped in to protect the child from his parents. While I might not agree with their decision, I can hear why a court would get involved regarding ones mistreatment of their children. From the way I see it, it's not about letting him die as much as it's about not abusing your child.

Keeping someone alive is now called abuse?
What about for the elderly?

[as2]

Keeping someone alive is now called abuse?
What about for the elderly?

I'm not saying that at all, but I can see how someone might see it that way, depending on what needs to be done to keep the person alive, especially when said person is in a vegetative state.

[good sam]

Keeping someone alive is now called abuse?
What about for the elderly?

+1

Justifying this in any manner is heading down a very dangerous road.

[good sam]

I'm not saying that at all, but I can see how someone might see it that way, depending on what needs to be done to keep the person alive, especially when said person is in a vegetative state.

That doesn't make any sense. If the courts stepped in to keep someone alive, that would be justifiable, if controversial. The reverse is unacceptable period.

[as2]

That doesn't make any sense. If the courts stepped in to keep someone alive, that would be justifiable, if controversial. The reverse is unacceptable period.

I'm not justifying it. I'm just trying to explain how I interpreted their actions.

[aygart]

I saw this in a bit of a different light. My understanding was that the court stepped in to protect the child from his parents. While I might not agree with their decision, I can hear why a court would get involved regarding ones mistreatment of their children. From the way I see it, it's not about letting him die as much as it's about not abusing your child.

ANYTHING can be justified with enough creativity.

[as2]

ANYTHING can be justified with enough creativity.

Once again, I'm not justifying, just stating how I interpreted their argument.

[good sam]

I'm not justifying it. I'm just trying to explain how I interpreted their actions.

Once again, I'm not justifying, just stating how I interpreted their argument.

I'm not seeing the difference.

[as2]

I'm not seeing the difference.

I'm differentiating between deciding that it will be better to let the child die with dignity, and not allowing parents to "torture" their child. While I think neither is the case, I can understand how some might agree with the latter, but will never understand anyone who think the first.

[moko]

I'm differentiating between deciding that it will be better to let the child die with dignity, and not allowing parents to "torture" their child. While I think neither is the case, I can understand how some might agree with the latter, but will never understand anyone who think the first.

they can use and twist that logic in any manner they wish once they decide what "dying with dignity" means.

[aygart]

they can use and twist that logic to murder anyone they wish by changing what "dying with dignity" means.

FTFY