Churban Baischa lo shachachnu

[chevron]

I'm curious to know what other think might have happened if;

The north had put up a better fight with the roman's
There was no infighting between factions
The 3rd wall was completed
The food stores were not burnt
Ill fated campaigns like that of ashkelon had been averted and the fighting force larger and stronger

Would titus have been defeated ? would rome have given up?

Would the Beit Hamikdash remained standing?

Would judaism have evolved ?

[zh cohen]

I assume you are qualifying your question with "Al pi derech hateva" because if not than the answer is clearly yes. (Except maybe the infighting, because of the sinas chinam it represents)

[chevron]

I assume you are qualifying your question with "Al pi derech hateva" because if not than the answer is clearly yes. (Except maybe the infighting, because of the sinas chinam it represents)

The story we are taught as kids is focused on kamtza and bar kamtza while the gemara doesnt really put it as a prime instance, merely to show the sinas chinam andd the silence of Zecharya ben avuklos.

But the real sinas chinam / infighting was the pointless murders of the different factions, the murder of Chanan ben Chanan the cohen gadol, the killings in the mikdash etc

[chevron]

They are linked, the derech hateva and the gezeirah milmala, the infighting and sinas chinam.

Plus on a derech hateva, the churban was not related to kamtza and bar kamtza, rome would have merely flexed their muscles etc, the churban stems from the revolt and the bais hamikdash as the core identity.

[thaber]

Reb yonason eibeshetz has an interesting take vis a vis the sinas chinam, not being moche against the different factions was sinas chinam, and they're aveiros brought about the churban, which is exactly what happened with the chachomim at kamtza bar kamtza.

[chevron]

Reb yonason eibeshetz has an interesting take vis a vis the sinas chinam, not being moche against the different factions was sinas chinam, and they're aveiros brought about the churban, which is exactly what happened with the chachomim at kamtza bar kamtza.

Yeah but kamtza and bar kamtza just seems like a theoretical thing. It does however blame the rabbinic leadership.

Yes I know embarrassing someone in public as akin to shfichas damim, but surely the legit fighting and killing was as much a factor ? I feel like focusing on kamtza and bar kamtza is just a important story that teaches us a lot but is hardly the whole story.

[thaber]

Yeah but kamtza and bar kamtza just seems like a theoretical thing. It does however blame the rabbinic leadership.

Yes I know embarrassing someone in public as akin to shfichas damim, but surely the legit fighting and killing was as much a factor ? I feel like focusing on kamtza and bar kamtza is just a important story that teaches us a lot but is hardly the whole story.

Not theoretical, but perhaps the more applicable lesson.
Important to remember that chazal were not necessarily interested in conveying the academic historical perspective, rather the lessons for future generations to learn

[Freddie]

From the context of the way the gemara introduces the story of kamtza and bar kamtza it's clear that the point of the story is not to teach how the churban happened. The point is to teach how seemingly trivial incidents can spiral into a disaster of historical scale.

[chevron]

From the context of the way the gemara introduces the story of kamtza and bar kamtza it's clear that the point of the story is not to teach how the churban happened. The point is to teach how seemingly trivial incidents can spiral into a disaster of historical scale.

That and lack of leadership

[Freddie]

That and lack of leadership

That may be a motif that you noticed and it may actually be there, but that's not the explicit context. The theme of the aggadata is pretty clear. Look how the sugya is introduced. "Ashrei adam mifached tamid" ie that you have to be concerned for "small" problems before they spiral. The gemara makes it clear from the beginning that this is the common theme of all the stories (the churban bais sheini, Tur Malka, and Beitar.)

In other words, to answer your original question, this aggadata is not the "history of the churban." It's a three-part master class on how trivial stuff blows up ch"v.

[hvaces42]

What the purpose of this exercise? Playing "What if?" with history is a real waste of energy. We have to deal with the facts on the ground. If the exercise is to learn from what happened then we cannot play this game.

[chevron]

Firstly we can learn a lot,  not merely from kamtza and bar kamtza but the zealots and sicari etc.

The situation prior to the churban was a disaster, there were heretics galore, the economic situation was terrible etc.

Was the rebbelion doomed from the beginning? I'm not sure? Certainly the rebbelion was doomed due to infighting in ways that are bederech hateva and gezayra milmala.

Were the rebel leaders evil or corrupted by power and brainwashed ideologies?  The more I study of the period the more it's conflicting.

Like for example, the roman's were defiling the mikdash, I'm sure many felt that they were following in chashmonaims way.

[chevron]

Also I'm really curious how things would have gone had the bais hamikdash not been destroyed. Sure the tzidukim and perushim would have continued fighting ?

[Freddie]

What if you could go back in time and wrestle Adam HaRishon to the ground before he could eat from the eitz hadaas?

[henche]

What if you could go back in time and wrestle Adam HaRishon to the ground before he could eat from the eitz hadaas?

Or, or, what if you could be the nachash.

[Freddie]

Or, or, what if you could be the nachash.

What if you were the nachash and didn't realize it and thought you were tackling Adam HaRishon but you were really tackling yourself?

[chevron]

What if you could go back in time and wrestle Adam HaRishon to the ground before he could eat from the eitz hadaas?

naw, thats too far fetched.Also I never met a talking snake so nothing to learn there but I never fully trusted women

By Yirmiyahu, he stated that they should not rebell and that doing so would cause the churban. But things were much more different by bayis shaini. Yes my questions of "what if" are just cute guesswork. But there are also historical lessons.

For example, when Rav Tzvi Hirsh Kalischer asked the Baron Rothschild to rebuild the Bait Hamikdash, he said dont worry about different machlokes and different views.

Nowdays we dont have Tzedukim, but imagine women of the temple

[churnbabychurn]

There is no such thing as Teva or "Al pi derech hateva".

We can only control our behavior. Nothing else.

[hvaces42]

Nowdays we dont have Tzedukim, but imagine women of the temple

Imagine PETA protests outside the Bais Hamikdash.

Imagine CNN reporting Moshiach's arrival.

Imagine a foreign dignitary visiting the Bais Hamikdash and the news reports covering it.

Imagine...

[Insert Beatles reference here]