MA'ASER ON POINTS???

[dirah]

I apologize if the hemshech wasn't clear enough, I was equating savings of 2.5% CB from a CC to savings of rent from a yoresh'd house. On what halachic basis is CB/Pts considered a rebate? (And don't tell me because that's how you feel inside.)

Let us take your logic a little bit further. You go to a store and buy something for $98. You give a $100 bill, and they give you $2 back. Do you have to give Maser on the $2. I assume that you agree not.
My dictionary explains the word rebate as follows: "A return of part of the original payment for some service or merchandise".
When you get get points or miles, you are getting something back, in lieu of your original payment.
When you live in a house for free, you are not getting anything at all. You are just avoiding payment.

You yourself wrote that "The Shevet Halevi speaks of inheritance of property because those who receive such a present do not have the means to separate such a great sum, as is many times the case with miles." I of course hear that one is not expected to pay out $50k in maaser upon being yoresh a house, but I am not sure how you are extending this to a monthly savings of rent.

The Shevet Halevi required the above reason to explain why you dont give Maser for the gift itself. As to the monthly savings of rent, that was not even a discussion, which is why I believe the Shevet Halevi does not even bother to address it.
To put it this way: Are you suggesting that someone who bought a house and paid it off still should be paying Maaser for the money that he saves in not paying rent?

Anyway, I think it's silly for most of us to try to be paskening anything here at all.

Agreed.

the only thing that should be discussed are potential svaras/positions on the metziyus on miles.

That is what we are doing.

Shall we start another thread on shchita perhaps?

I am game.

[dirah]

Shevet Halevi is one shita on yerusha, there are many others including Shla”a, Pischei Tshuva, Elya Rabba, Reb Moshe Shternbuch…...

Another example of non-communcation!
Did you read this:
http://www.dansdeals.com/forums/index.php?topic=8321.msg98695#msg98695

Same applies to "I of course hear that one is not expected to pay out $50k in maaser upon being yoresh a house".... See above regarding matana. Not being able to give ma'aser does not make you patur, you can separate in the future as per Reb Shlomo Zalman and Dayan Fisher

I don't see a contradiction. Reb Shlomo Zalman and Dayan Fisher are saying that where the Minhag is to give Maser, a lack of means to do so does not make you patur.
Shevet Halevi is merely saying that if the very nature of the gift itself is that it is typically beyond one's means to pay it, then there is no Minhag in the first place.

[aycee]

Another example of non-communcation!
Did you read this:
http://www.dansdeals.com/forums/index.php?topic=8321.msg98695#msg98695

Yes my dear, I did read it. And you are correct, karka is different. With property one is only mechuyav to give ma'aser on income generated (peyros) through rent or a sale not on the principal (keren).
See yosef Ometz perek hatzedaka vehamaasr
See Shu't Shvet Halevi -which is what you quoting as well- vol5 siman 133
See Teshuvos Vehanhagos vol1 siman 560
See Reb Moshe Shternbuch as written in kuntres Am Hatorah madurah 2 choveres 5
However, what does this have to do with "the means to separate such a great sum"? By matana Reb Shlomo Zalman and Dayan Fisher held that one should give ma'aser and if he doesnt have the cash on hand he should keep cheshbon and give as it becomes available........

[aycee]

I am not minimising the importance of the Minhag. However, since this Minhag was never practiced with regards to miles and membership points, then what is the basis of including miles and membership points in the Minhag?

I don't see why the specific item would matter. IF we are going to say that one is mechuyav to pay ma'aser on points because it is a form of income, then the fact there is no mihag or mesorah makes no difference; the chiyuv is on income of any sort. People were not mafrish ma'aser on American currency 300 years ago, people were not mafrish ma'aser on many fruits and vegtables that we have today 300 years ago, there are many things today that we take ma'aser on today that we didn't years ago.  - that is beacuause the chiyuv is on income, no matter what sort.

[aycee]

I don't see a contradiction. Reb Shlomo Zalman and Dayan Fisher are saying that where the Minhag is to give Maser, a lack of means to do so does not make you patur.
Shevet Halevi is merely saying that if the very nature of the gift itself is that it is typically beyond one's means to pay it, then there is no Minhag in the first place.

RSZ and DF are not saying where the minhag is to give m'aser.... They hold that one is mechuyav to give ma'aser on a gift. But if one does not have the $$ available then he can do it later when funds are available. The Shevet Halevi holds like the other poskim I brought down that hold that matanos are not mechuyav in ma'aser. This whole minhag thing that you keep saying seems to have no basis in halacha

[aycee]

Time to call it a night. But first a raya to the Ba'al ha'Blog - Reb Dan...

Chaikel, ask your Rav: If somebody recycles a soda bottle and gets 5 cents, does he need to give ma'aser? After all, the 5 cents is not refunded by the person he purchased the soda from, it is refunded by the government.....

[Chaikel]

This is a very interesting discussion.  I would love to have Dan be able to sit with the unnamed Rav that Chaikel talked to so that both sides can fully understand the other's rules and reasons

+1
But for that matter, we might as well go to RYB and make everyone happy. Dan, a cordial invitation to join me next time you visit.

Time to call it a night. But first a raya to the Ba'al ha'Blog - Reb Dan...

Chaikel, ask your Rav: If somebody recycles a soda bottle and gets 5 cents, does he need to give ma'aser? After all, the 5 cents is not refunded by the person he purchased the soda from, it is refunded by the government.....

Will do.

I want to clarify something. A signup bonus isn't an investment. The investment would be the annual fee, the sign up bonus is the return.
Lemme throw this out there. What does the oilem think about an aris (lav davka karka/peiros)? Does he have to pay ma'aser on the percentage that he takes as income?

Also I see three different scenarios with regards to 'items'. 1. An item one would have bought 2. an item one never have bought, 3. an item that one would be willing to but at a severe discount (in Dan's case 1-2%, maybe even less). I think some of the conflicts of teshuvos can be answered assuming that the 3 scenarios have different halachos. I didn't read through everything. Kinda hard when you go to sleep and wake up 3 pages later, but I'm wondering what the oilem thinks

[Driven]

I think people are ignoring another aspect (perhaps some said it in other words), airlines are not giving you free miles, you are paying for them in the price of your ticket, in the purchases on your credit cards vechulu v'dl. As long as you paid masser on the money with which you purchased your ticket, you are covered

But what happens if they bump you and give you a $350 voucher, can you say that it's like getting a refund (a la 5 cents back on a can of coke) and that masser has already been paid on that money or is it like income?

If you are unsure how to tithe your miles feel free to give them to me so you don't run the risk of being a choite. And it seems l'kule alma I won't have to give masser on a gift that isn't cash (at least it's not noheig).

[Dan]

Rabbi Chaikin from Cleveland, a dayan for Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch and member of the Cleveland Beis
Din, told me that no maiser is owed on miles that are earned or used without selling them to someone else for cash
. 
He said you do not owe maiser for flying on a mileage ticket any more than a teacher owes maiser on eating free meals in a yeshiva cafeteria (He doesn't.)

To arrive at that conclusion we did discuss many factors including that we pasken that:
-Maiser today is a minhag.
-The minhag that people generally accept today is maiser on cash.
-You are not required to give maiser on presents or other non-cash items.
-Miles are officially the property of the airline and you can lose all your miles if you are caught selling them, thus they are decidedly not a cash-equivalent item.   Once you do decide to sell them for cash then that would be another story.

[springles]

Rabbi Chaikin from Cleveland, a dayan for Vaad Rabbonei Lubavitch and member of the Cleveland Beis
Din, told me that no maiser is owed on miles that are earned or used without selling them to someone else for cash
. 
He said you do not owe maiser for flying on a mileage ticket any more than a teacher owes maiser on eating free meals in a yeshiva cafeteria (He doesn't.)

To arrive at that conclusion we did discuss many factors including that we pasken that:
-Maiser today is a minhag.
-The minhag that people generally accept today is maiser on cash.
-You are not required to give maiser on presents or other non-cash items.
-Miles are officially the property of the airline and you can lose all your miles if you are caught selling them, thus they are decidedly not a cash-equivalent item.   Once you do decide to sell them for cash then that would be another story.

I am not saying I disagree with the answer you received but it seems the example of the teacher is not a good one.  Firstly, from what I understand of maaser you are supposed to include all benefits you receive from a job including health insurance, allowance for meals, gas reimbursement... at the value that you would have paid for it had you not received it from your job.  My belief is that a teacher should include free meals as part of their income as they would have to eat anyway. (The value of the meals are debatable though.) Secondly, I dont in any way see the comparison between a teacher getting free meals and someone using miles for an award ticket.

I spent this shabbos learning as many halachos of maaser as I could as well as reading "The Laws of Tzedakkah and Maaser" by Rabbi Shimon Taub to get as much understanding of the topic as I could.  At the end of the day I am not sure what the outcome of my learning was but it seems it is definitely more of a question then I thought at first glance. 

I guess everyone should go by what their LOR tells them to do.

[Driven]

Lmaskana, you DON'T need to give masser on miles. If you can't live with yourself for not giving masser on miles then go ahead. You won't be the first Jew who does something lifnim meshuras hadin. Now time to go learn some other halachas that will actually improve your observance on the basics.

[jj1000]

Lmaskana, you DON'T need to give masser on miles. If you can't live with yourself for not giving masser on miles then go ahead. You won't be the first Jew who does something lifnim meshuras hadin. Now time to go learn some other halachas that will actually improve your observance on the basics.

lifnim meshuras hadin only applies if there is a din to be machmer on in the first place. There is no concept of giving masser on something that is patur from it... that would just be a minhag shtus.

[Chaikel]

-Miles are officially the property of the airline and you can lose all your miles if you are caught selling them, thus they are decidedly not a cash-equivalent item.   Once you do decide to sell them for cash then that would be another story.

I asked my rav about this sevara, and he replied with what I had been thinking (I didn't suggest it to him). The miles may not be yours, the question of ma'aser is based on the flights being taken, and not on the actual miles earned.
That being said, it's clearly a machlokes. I think I'm gonna be machmir, until the next DO by RYB.

[Dan]

Except for quoting what your own LOR tells you to do I feel that any further discussion of this topic will probably be pointless...
If you feel holy then by all means give maiser every time you get change for a dollar from your local supermarket.  Otherwise ask your LOR and do what he says to do. 

[leeboy]

lifnim meshuras hadin only applies if there is a din to be machmer on in the first place. There is no concept of giving masser on something that is patur from it... that would just be a minhag shtus.

Even though we hold maaser today is only a minhag
there are opinions that hold maaser is medioraysa and u would be chayiv to give on miles. therefore lofnim meshuras hadin would be to give maaser
Either way a little tzedekah doesnt hurt

[yare]

Lmaskana, you DON'T need to give masser on miles. If you can't live with yourself for not giving masser on miles then go ahead. You won't be the first Jew who does something lifnim meshuras hadin. Now time to go learn some other halachas that will actually improve your observance on the basics.

wow, you should change your username from "driven" to "drivel", more appropriate i think.   out of all the people that have asked the shailoh only one came back with a psak that that you don't need to give maaser on miles, and then you go state it like it's a fact? and then have the nerve to put down those who are trying to not let their piles of miles blind them from the fact that G-d is in charge of miles as well as the rest of the world and they might be obligated to give maaser on it?     let me give you a sage piece of advice - if you have nothing smart to say, don't say nothing.  and that's putting it nicely.                     

on a separate note i find it interesting how when it comes to airlines, such as aa or usairways, shutting down accounts because of "suspected" fraud, or taking away miles for whatever reason that be, just about everyone is up in arms talking about how they should be taken to court, that regardless of what it says in the t&c's the miles are your property; that they have no right to take what's yours; that a bank can't just confiscate your money and an airline can't take away your miles, etc etc etc           and then, remarkably (or not so remarkably) when it comes time to see if miles have a din maaser, people are real quick to talk about how miles aren't really property, they're not a cash equivalent, even if they are they are they really belong to the airlines etc etc etc          go figure.

[Dan]

wow, you should change your username from "driven" to "drivel", more appropriate i think.   out of all the people that have asked the shailoh only one came back with a psak that that you don't need to give maaser on miles, and then you go state it like it's a fact? and then have the nerve to put down those who are trying to not let their piles of miles blind them from the fact that G-d is in charge of miles as well as the rest of the world and they might be obligated to give maaser on it?     let me give you a sage piece of advice - if you have nothing smart to say, don't say nothing.  and that's putting it nicely.                     

on a separate note i find it interesting how when it comes to airlines, such as aa or usairways, shutting down accounts because of "suspected" fraud, or taking away miles for whatever reason that be, just about everyone is up in arms talking about how they should be taken to court, that regardless of what it says in the t&c's the miles are your property; that they have no right to take what's yours; that a bank can't just confiscate your money and an airline can't take away your miles, etc etc etc           and then, remarkably (or not so remarkably) when it comes time to see if miles have a din maaser, people are real quick to talk about how miles aren't really property, they're not a cash equivalent, even if they are they are they really belong to the airlines etc etc etc          go figure.

Regardless of whose property they are, it's it's a long stretch to call maiser a cash equivalent.  Maybe the Rebbi should also sell his free cafeteria meal?  And after all he won't risk being banned for life for selling that meal.

If you convert it to cash you owe maiser, simple as that.  If you don't then you don't.
The minhag of maiser that most people have a chazakah on is giving maiser on cash.  To shlep the minhag and apply it to every other aspect of your life i something you should discuss with your own LOR.

[Driven]

wow, you should change your username from "driven" to "drivel", more appropriate i think.   out of all the people that have asked the shailoh only one came back with a psak that that you don't need to give maaser on miles, and then you go state it like it's a fact? and then have the nerve to put down those who are trying to not let their piles of miles blind them from the fact that G-d is in charge of miles as well as the rest of the world and they might be obligated to give maaser on it?     let me give you a sage piece of advice - if you have nothing smart to say, don't say nothing.  and that's putting it nicely.                     

----

I apologize to any and all that I have offended with my comments.

Btw did you ask your rav if you have to pay masser on tashmish at FMV?

[Driven]

To clarify, the last two lines in the above posting are not part of the original quote. I don't want to be accused of gnaivas daas etc.

[yare]

umm, dan, isn't there a 14 year old age limit for the forums?  maybe you should talk to drivels tatty and get permission for him to be posting here?