MA'ASER ON POINTS???

[Dan]

Not all Rabbis completely understand the miles & points system.

I think that's the major issue at play here.  It also takes the right person to ask the question that is able fully explain how they work in order to get the right answer.

[aycee]

How about if you sell a non-cash gift, is that considered profit that you must tithe?

Very good question.
It would seem that the same halacha would apply whether you sold it or not. As I wrote above, people are generally not noheg to separate ma’aser on non cash gifts. (Although it is interesting to note that even the Chazon Ish ztl who held that one need not separate ma’aser from gifts that are not cash, said that one who give ma’aser on such items will be saved from all sorts of bad things.) According to Reb Shlomo Zalman Aurbach that holds that you need to give ma'aser on gifts of shava kesef you do not need need to borrow money to give the ma'aser, but when you sell the gift you need to give ma'aser from the cash you receive. However, RSZA and Dayan Reb Yisroel Yakov Fisher both held that even if you don't sell the item, if you don't have cash to give ma'aser you should keep note of the amount you owe and give it over time as it becomes available.

[Dan]

Bmchilas Kevod Moreinu Rav Dan:
"ridiculousness" is pushing it. All these psakim come from somewhere or somebody who is likely alot more learned than us.
See Rabbeinu Yona in Sefer Hayirah (213) that paskens that even if one finds a metziya they must pay ma'aser.
*"metziah" meaning lost object, not a good deal

There's a massive difference between paying maiser on a found lost object item and paying maiser on a purchase rebate!!!

[aycee]

There's a massive difference between paying maiser on a found lost object item and paying maiser on a purchase rebate!!!

1-correct
2-why are points like purchase rebates? a purchase rebate comes from the vendor, these points are coming from a 3rd party

[Dan]

1-correct
2-why are points like purchase rebates? a purchase rebate comes from the vendor, these points are coming from a 3rd party

It is coming from the vendor.
If I buy something from a store for $100 they pay $2.50 to Chase and Chase rebates 100 miles to me.
Same as if I had a cashback card that I would receive $1 cash back.  Ultimately this comes from the store though.

If I buy a ticket from CO for $100 and get 5,000 miles for the flight, this is a purchase rebate from CO.

These are definitely not income IMHO.

Even when you open a CC, the IRS doesn't call it income.  They classify it as a purchase rebate based on purchases required for the bonus or the future purchases/interest you will pay while using the card.

[aycee]

It is coming from the vendor.
If I buy something from a store for $100 they pay $2.50 to Chase and Chase rebates 100 miles to me.
Same as if I had a cashback card that I would receive $1 cash back.  Ultimately this comes from the store though.

If I buy a ticket from CO for $100 and get 5,000 miles for the flight, this is a purchase rebate from CO.

These are definitely not income IMHO.

Even when you open a CC, the IRS doesn't call it income.  They classify it as a purchase rebate based on purchases required for the bonus or the future purchases/interest you will pay while using the card.

I hear... Good point...

[shach]

nah. I don't give maaser on anything I don't pay taxes on.
Haven't given maaser in years

WOW! proud of no taxes having to be paid or reforming the halachah to go by the IRS rule book?

[Yungerman]

I have a friend who sold 300k miles a month on average and was told by his Rov that he doesn't have to give Maa'ser on it.
The miles were accrued through spending and from what I understood, it was compared to selling/trading one thing for another.
My friend, however, wasn't happy with his hetter and wanted an excuse to give Maa'ser(very admirable I must say).

Anyhow, this was my friend's shailoh, ask YOUR personal LOR.

[Chaikel]

He actually specifically said that if you get a great deal in a store, you don't have to pay ma'aser. But this isn't the same thing. This is more of an income, the only question is what is the actual value of the income. He had sources for everything, and frankly without the opposing view point of a qualified rav, it's hard to just decide you don't agree with him. I felt the person thoroughly understood the system. His questions were on the mark and to the point. If you're rav disagrees that's fine, but if someone just decides to argue, I don't really see how.
To clarify he was talking about CC miles. Miles earned via flying may be different. I will try and ask him.
I don't know the halacha about presents, but I would assume that this different because as he said, it should be viewed more as an income.
BTW. If you're doing a job that most people would do for free, and you are getting paid to do it, then of course you have to pay ma'aser on that. That was the way I understood his psak.

[Dan]

I have a friend who sold 300k miles a month on average and was told by his Rov that he doesn't have to give Maa'ser on it.
The miles were accrued through spending and from what I understood, it was compared to selling/trading one thing for another.
My friend, however, wasn't happy with his hetter and wanted an excuse to give Maa'ser(very admirable I must say).

Anyhow, this was my friend's shailoh, ask YOUR personal LOR.

I don't see why the heter has to be based on "trading" for something else when it's a simple case of a rebate of money that was spent on something else and not actually earned income.

[Chaikel]

I don't see why the heter has to be based on "trading" for something else when it's a simple case of a rebate of money that was spent on something else and not actually earned income.

That may be true I was about to clarify that I was talking about sign up and referral bonuses. I will try to ask him about the others.
Dan to you have an opposing psak?

[Dan]

That may be true I was about to clarify that I was talking about sign up and referral bonuses. I will try to ask him about the others.

Even when you open a CC, the IRS doesn't call it income.  They classify it as a purchase rebate based on purchases required for the bonus or the future purchases/interest you will pay while using the card.

The signup bonus isn't just free money.  It's based on a rebate of the spend requirement or future purchases.  Be sure that the Rov in question understands this concept.  It's not something imaginary if the IRS classifies as such either.

Now a checking account bonus the IRS does tax as there's no rebate of a purchase, therefore it's considered income.  So if you open up a Citi checking account it can be more problematic.  If you get 20K miles and are 1099'ed at 2.5cpm, just what do you owe maiser on?  After paying the IRS their share and paying maiser on it it's probably not worth bothering with the hassle in the first place!

[Deal Guy]

Imagine DAN is told that he now has to give ma'aser on all his signup bonuses....

[Dan]

Imagine DAN is told that he now has to give ma'aser on all his signup bonuses....

Again, let's hypothetically say I am.
I also just burned roughly 560,000 miles and 160,000 hotel points on a month-long RTW trip worth roughly $250,000 at FMV.
It's a trip that I never would have taken in a million years if it wasn't free.
Care to chime in on what I "owe" for the trip?

[qwerty]

wow such lamdonim!

[Chaikel]

Again, let's hypothetically say I am.
I also just burned roughly 560,000 miles and 160,000 hotel points on a month-long RTW trip worth roughly $250,000 at FMV.
It's a trip that I never would have taken in a million years if it wasn't free.
Care to chime in on what I "owe" for the trip?

If a travel agent called you and offered you that exact trip for $100, would you have taken it? $1000? $10,000? Obviously not $250k (unless DD is really doing that well )
Whatever price would have been worth it for you to take the exact trip you took, that is the value that ma'aser should be taken from. I specifically asked him that question, and that was the answer.
Unless someone speaks to a qualified rav, I don't believe opinions don't come into play here.
I will try and speak to him today. I will try and get as many sources from him as possible. If you'd like me to ask him anything specific, feel free to post a request. If you'd like to know who he is, PM me

[Dan]

If a travel agent called you and offered you that exact trip for $100, would you have taken it? $1000? $10,000? Obviously not $250k (unless DD is really doing that well )
Whatever price would have been worth it for you to take the exact trip you took, that is the value that ma'aser should be taken from. I specifically asked him that question, and that was the answer.
Unless someone speaks to a qualified rav, I don't believe opinions don't come into play here.
I will try and speak to him today. I will try and get as many sources from him as possible. If you'd like me to ask him anything specific, feel free to post a request. If you'd like to know who he is, PM me

And what if it's 1/3 miles earned from flying, 1/3 from spending, and 1/3 from churning.  Personally I don't think any should qualify as income, but even if 1 category did, should we start making impossible cheshboinos where every mile came from whenever we travel somewhere?



Anyway I don't think someone can fairly answer the questions of what would they pay for something.  That's very subjective to the whims of the moment.  And it's an impossible situation as no travel agent will ever call me up offering me such a trip for $1,000 as I would say its a scam and not bother going.
If it wasn't for the miles the bottom line is I wouldn't have gone.

Similar to walking or taking a bus.  Is it $2 in income if I decide to walk one day?  How should a value walking?  Some things just aren't meant to be valued IMHO.

[Smokey Joe Robinson]

Again, let's hypothetically say I am.
I also just burned roughly 560,000 miles and 160,000 hotel points on a month-long RTW trip worth roughly $250,000 at FMV.
It's a trip that I never would have taken in a million years if it wasn't free.
Care to chime in on what I "owe" for the trip?

Can you teach us how to pull something like that off? That sounds great.

[Smokey Joe Robinson]

And what if it's 1/3 miles earned from flying, 1/3 from spending, and 1/3 from churning.  Personally I don't think any should qualify as income, but even if 1 category did, should we start making impossible cheshboinos where every mile came from whenever we travel somewhere?

I think well need a special spreadsheet for this, paging nitantel

[Dan]

Can you teach us how to pull something like that off? That sounds great.

Sure, fly 20 flights in F and stay in $5,000/night 5 star hotel suites.  Easy.