MA'ASER ON POINTS???

[Chaikel]

Who cares what its worth to you? A printer has market value and he could sell it online or elsewhere.  If he chooses to give it to charity than it makes sense that he should get market value off his ma'asar( along with a tax break).  After all a charity that receives a $250 printer is able to get $250 of use out of it either by selling it or using it.

One of the questions he actually asked me was if there was a black market (which is different than mileage dealers advertising and buying from individuals, don't ask me why). Not sure if/how it affected the psak.

Basically the reasons he gave were as follows. I will try my best to repeat it as close as possible to what he said. He specifically said in each case it does not have a din of matana.
1. A signup bonus is not the equivalent of buying something on sale (the annual fee being the payment). It's simply not a purchase, it's an investment. You can, of course, deduct the sign-up bonus as an expense, but you must pay on the "profit". The fact that it's not cash doesn't exclude it, it doesn't even fall into the category of the presents machlokes, as it is considered a 'benefit of a business transaction' (loosely his words)
2. Referral bonus. That seems pretty straight forward. It's the equivalent to a commission. Using the 'cash' rule from 1, it's pretty open-shut IMO
3. Spending. So I tried long and hard to push the rebate/ sale rule for this, but at the end he disagreed. He said those are intrinsically included in the price, while a credit card mile is more of an incentive to use the card (as I understood him) and external of the price.
I told him there are people who include the miles into the price of items they are purchasing. He asked me if it was commonplace, to which I responded no, he said that based on my answer of no, he would say it wouldn't make a difference even to those who factor it into the price (if someone disagrees with my answer, the psak may be different, but to the best of my knowledge it a very small minority, and from his answer in 4, it doesn't even seem like it would make a difference)
4. Flying. He said that flying would have the same rule as spending on a credit card. He said that the halacha is, if someone is going to NY and his ticket is $1000, but he knows that if he goes to NY he will make a $600 [profit] business deal, so his actual cost for the ticket will be $400, he still must give maser on the full $600.
Which brought us to mileage run. So if someone is paying $1000 for a flight to make $1000+, let's use $1200. He only has to pay ma'aser on $200. Al kein - if a mileage run is netting money, then the profit would be what is left after expenses. (I'm not sure how one would evaluate the points in that situation. Lechura you would take the value as originally posted, and subtract the fares).
So in summary if you are earning more than your expenses that you only pay on the profit, less or equal (as I understand his psak on equal) on the whole thing.
Sometimes I wear sneakers with my suit... and one a year I wave a chicken over my head... cause I'm a jew...

No one says it's simple or easy. It's who we are, it's what we do. And part of what we do is ask shailos if something isn't 100% clear, not pasken ourselves.


One request. If someone is going to ask questions on what I just wrote, please one question at a time, not 12 at a shot. I will try my best to answer each one based on what he told me, or go back to him and ask.

[arie]

Chaikel, it seems your posek wants to define the relationship between the bank and the consumer as a business relationship, hence his calling it an ' investment' or ' commission'. As this is a question of metzius, I would respectfully disagree. I would say that they give these promotions as an incentive for you to use their card, the same way you would give a candy to a child as an incentive. And I think most people are not trying to get points as an investment either. That would be categorized as a gift not a business agreement.

[Dan]

Chaikel, it seems your posek wants to define the relationship between the bank and the consumer as a business relationship, hence his calling it an ' investment' or ' commission'. As this is a question of metzius, I would respectfully disagree. I would say that they give these promotions as an incentive for you to use their card, the same way you would give a candy to a child as an incentive. And I think most people are not trying to get points as an investment either. That would be categorized as a gift not a business agreement.

I'd agree with that. I don't look at my points as an investment, I see them as banks sponsoring my luxury travel addiction.
The fact that programs don't allow the sale of miles and can ban you for selling them proves that this is not a normal business investment...

Either way I will have a discussion with my LOR about it.

[Chaikel]

Either way I will have a discussion with my LOR about it.

I think that was the original point I was trying to make. Kinda got lost in the peppers (pilpul)

[dirah]

I just saw this thread.
Maybe the problem is that Chaikel is speaking to someone well versed in CH"M.
Hilchos Maaser is not CH"M, it is Y"D.
Just wondering...

[dirah]

Just to throw in a couple of pointers that I don’t think anyone mentioned:

1. Many Poskim hold that Maaser Kesofim is Minhag. This obviously doesn’t minimize its importance, but at the same time, I am not sure that one can throw miles into the bag if there was never such a Minhag.

2. Rabbi SZ Auerbach paskened that one need not give Maaser for fringe benefits when he would not have otherwise paid cash for the same benefits. I would imagine that Kal V’Chomer one does not have to give Maser for the benefits he receives from mileage when he would not have otherwise paid cash for the same benefits.

3. Shevet Halevi (Vol 5, 133, section 3, para 7) makes the following statement which could arguably (and I emphasize, arguably) be extrapolated to our case. A free translation:
“It appears that the custom is not to give Maser on an inheritance of property … and we never heard that one who received a house as a present, as common these days in Israel, that he should have to give Maser, which according to the present situation is not possible, and in most cases, those who receive such a present do not have the assets to separate such a great sum”.
Thus, as Dan said earlier, it would make no sense to expect him to give $25K for the mileage trip worth $250K.

4. As some noted, there is a Machlokes whether to give Maser on presents. Mishne Halochos (vol 6, 199) is clear that this is all based on whether one needs to give Maser on “items”, or only “cash”. I imagine that miles is regarded as “items”, not “cash”. And as noted above, many (everyone I know) have the Minhag not to give Maser on presents.

[Chaikel]

Just to throw in a couple of pointers that I don’t think anyone mentioned:

1. Many Poskim hold that Maaser Kesofim is Minhag. This obviously doesn’t minimize its importance, but at the same time, I am not sure that one can throw miles into the bag if there was never such a Minhag.

2. Rabbi SZ Auerbach paskened that one need not give Maaser for fringe benefits when he would not have otherwise paid cash for the same benefits. I would imagine that Kal V’Chomer one does not have to give Maser for the benefits he receives from mileage when he would not have otherwise paid cash for the same benefits.

3. Shevet Halevi (Vol 5, 133, section 3, para 7) makes the following statement which could arguably (and I emphasize, arguably) be extrapolated to our case. A free translation:
“It appears that the custom is not to give Maser on an inheritance of property … and we never heard that one who received a house as a present, as common these days in Israel, that he should have to give Maser, which according to the present situation is not possible, and in most cases, those who receive such a present do not have the assets to separate such a great sum”.
Thus, as Dan said earlier, it would make no sense to expect him to give $25K for the mileage trip worth $250K.

4. As some noted, there is a Machlokes whether to give Maser on presents. Mishne Halochos (vol 6, 199) is clear that this is all based on whether one needs to give Maser on “items”, or only “cash”. I imagine that miles is regarded as “items”, not “cash”. And as noted above, many (everyone I know) have the Minhag not to give Maser on presents.

I'm pretty sure I addressed points 2, 3, and 4 quite specifically. As for 1 I didn't know, although now that you mention it, it does sound vaguely familiar

[dirah]

Well I don't know what you are referring to specifically.
From what I can see, you "addressed" it by saying:
1. "A signup bonus is an investment".
That is sheer nonsense, as some of the others already pointed out. No need to argue about the color of grass.
2. "The fact that it's not cash doesn't exclude it, it doesn't even fall into the category of the presents machlokes, as it is considered a 'benefit of a business transaction'".
I provided you with sources to the contrary. So who should I believe, those sources, or an unnamed CH"M posek quoted by Chaikel?

[U-no-me!]

I asked a shaila and bottom line is that you would give maaser on any money received from the sales of your points.  If I sell 100k BA points for $1,000 (for example), I would need to give minimum $100 for maaser (and according to the G"RA, $200). 

I did not ask about any other scenarios are they were/are unapplicable to me at this time.

Everyone agrees maaser is 10% the GR"A does not disagree, rather he says it's better to give chomesh and it is a segula for guranteed riches (maaseh rav).
Although Maaser itself is a segula for riches as it it the only mitzvah in the torah where you can test hashem as it says in pasuk "chanuni no bazos". some poskim say that it also applys to tzedaka others disagre.
Either wast its all YMMV

[U-no-me!]

Just to throw in a couple of pointers that I don’t think anyone mentioned:

1. Many Poskim hold that Maaser Kesofim is Minhag. This obviously doesn’t minimize its importance, but at the same time, I am not sure that one can throw miles into the bag if there was never such a Minhag.

A bit misleading to just quote "minhag" without explaining.

[dirah]

A bit misleading to just quote "minhag" without explaining.

Care to explain what is so misleading?
[BTW, changing your DD name all the time is certainly misleading, but we won't go off topic...]

Although Maaser itself is a segula for riches as it it the only mitzvah in the torah where you can test hashem as it says in pasuk "chanuni no bazos".

Now that is misleading. This Posuk refers to Maaser Tevuoh. Whether is applies to Maaser Kesofim is a big Machlockes, although I obviously like to think that it does.

[arie]

Care to explain what is so misleading?

Although it is a minhag, it can be a problem of nedarim if one gave ma'aser three times without stipulating that it should be B"N. As always, ask your lor.

[dirah]

As I wrote clearly, the fact that it is a Minhag does not minimize its importance.
And of course, if one did it three time then there is the issue of Nedorim, which is in any case intrinsically connected with the issue of Minhag.
But that doesn't detract from my point, which was that since this Minhag was never practiced with regards to miles and membership points, then what is the basis of adding miles and membership points "to the bag"?

[aycee]

1. Many Poskim hold that Maaser Kesofim is Minhag.

A very rough statement to make considering that just as many poskim hold its halacha mefureshes - though they do argue if its d'oraysa or d'rabanan.

But even lefi those who do hold that it's a minhag, the halacha is that since one was noheg like that for a long time it is a chiyuv since it becomes a neder.
See: Chavos Yair (224), Shu't Chasam Sofer (Y"D 331), Shu't Chasan Sofer (20).
Also see Shailas Yaavet'z (1-6) that writes that even if a person gives ma'aser kesafim only one time it becomes a neder and he can not be mafkia the chiyuv

[dirah]

A very rough statement to make considering that just as many poskim hold its halacha mefureshes - though they do argue if its d'oraysa or d'rabanan.

Check your sources. Most Poskim actually hold that it is a Minhag. Of course, there are many who hold that it is D'Oyrayso or D'Rabbanan, but most Poskim hold it is Minhag.

But even lefi those who do hold that it's a minhag, the halacha is that since one was noheg like that for a long time it is a chiyuv since it becomes a neder.
See: Chavos Yair (224), Shu't Chasam Sofer (Y"D 331), Shu't Chasan Sofer (20).
Also see Shailas Yaavet'z (1-6) that writes that even if a person gives ma'aser kesafim only one time it becomes a neder and he can not be mafkia the chiyuv

My point (for the third time): I am not minimising the importance of the Minhag. However, since this Minhag was never practiced with regards to miles and membership points, then what is the basis of including miles and membership points in the Minhag?

[aycee]

3. Shevet Halevi (Vol 5, 133, section 3, para 7) makes the following statement which could arguably (and I emphasize, arguably) be extrapolated to our case. A free translation:
“It appears that the custom is not to give Maser on an inheritance of property … and we never heard that one who received a house as a present, as common these days in Israel, that he should have to give Maser, which according to the present situation is not possible, and in most cases, those who receive such a present do not have the assets to separate such a great sum”.
Thus, as Dan said earlier, it would make no sense to expect him to give $25K for the mileage trip worth $250K.

Wow.... Again, you are only brining down one shita! You should really put a massive disclaimer that your posts are missing much info and you are only presenting one side.

See: Elya Rabba (156), Shel"ah (272) who whold that one must give ma'aser on a yerusah.
See Kuntres Am Hatorah (madura 2 choveres 5) where Reb Moshe Shternbuch Shlit"a writes that a person is mechuyav to give ma'aser on yerusha when he uses it for business or for other expenses. (Thought that is very shver. Why should it be different that any other ma'aser??)
See the Shla'h (same as above) and Pischei Teshuva (249-1) that hold that even if the father gave ma'aser all his life still the son must separate ma'aser on the yerusha since the reshus ha'ben is a new reshus.

[skyguy918]

A very rough statement to make considering that just as many poskim hold its halacha mefureshes - though they do argue if its d'oraysa or d'rabanan.

I was actually thinking along the lines of dirah's reasoning and as far as it being minhag, check out R' Shimon Taub english sefer on maaser (The Laws of Tzedakah and Maaser). He says some poskim say it's d'oraysa, some say it's d'rabanan, but MOST poskim hold it's minhag.

Since it's fair to say that maaser hasn't become a minhag kavua for points/miles, I'd say it's definitely within a person's rights to decide not to give on them (unless of course they already do, in which case it'd be difficult to stop).

[aycee]

Check your sources. Most Poskim actually hold that it is a Minhag. Of course, there are many who hold that it is D'Oyrayso or D'Rabbanan, but most Poskim hold it is Minhag.

okay okay... you want sources? you got it!

the following hold that m'aser kesafim is a d'oraysa:
see tosafos taanis 9a besheim the sifri
see mordechai b'k 7th perek siman 192 beseim tshuva r' tuvia bar eliyahu and mordechai b'b 1st perek siman 659
see shu't tashba'tz chelek 1 siman 144 besheim the medrash tanchuma in parshas re'ey ois 18
see ohr zarua chelek 1 hilchos tzedaka siman 13

the following hod that ma'aser kesafim is a d'rabanan:
see mahri'l siman 54
see shu't tshuvah m'ahava chelek1 siman 87
see shu't noda b'yehuda madura kama y'd siman 73
see be'er yaakov y'd siman 331

So all of the above hold its a chiyuv -either d'oraysa or d'rabanan- and not a minhag

[aycee]

I was actually thinking along the lines of dirah's reasoning and as far as it being minhag, check out R' Shimon Taub english sefer on maaser (The Laws of Tzedakah and Maaser). He says some poskim say it's d'oraysa, some say it's d'rabanan, but MOST poskim hold it's minhag.

Since it's fair to say that maaser hasn't become a minhag kavua for points/miles, I'd say it's definitely within a person's rights to decide not to give on them (unless of course they already do, in which case it'd be difficult to stop).

Yes, it seems that halacha lemayseh we are somech on the shita that it is a minhag.

see bac'h tur y'd 331
see gilyonei hashas on taanis 9 that brings down a maram bar baruch siman 74
see shu't pnei yehoshua vol1 o'c siman 2
see shut chavos yair siman 224
see shu't shevus yaakov vol2 y'd siman 5
see sheilas yavetz vol1 siman 6
see shu't chasm sofer y'd siman 331
see reb akiva eiger in peirush hamishna in peyah perek1 mishna1
see aruch hashulchan siman 249 se'if 5
see shu't meishiv davar y'd siman 77
 ....who all seem to hold that it's a minhag

see shu't shevus yaakov vol2 siman 85
see chavos yair above
see sheilas yaavetz above
see mishnas chachomim hilchos yesodei hartorah page 17
see pischei tshuva y'd 331-12
...who hold that we pasken halacha lemayseh that its a minhag

see shut shevus ya'akov vol2 siman 85

but also see my last post about the minhag being a neder.....

[aycee]

Since it's fair to say that maaser hasn't become a minhag kavua for points/miles, I'd say it's definitely within a person's rights to decide not to give on them (unless of course they already do, in which case it'd be difficult to stop).

That is exactly what we are discussing here... Do points fall into the category of kesafim, and if they do how is one mafrish ma'aser