Hairgate

[aygart]

Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong.

That's going to be one long wait.

In 15 seconds on google I found more than 5 places on DDF where I did that. How many can either of you find you big talkers?

[Sport]

I don't think this is on the school. I think this is on the parents for patronizing schools with ridiculous rules. People like the rules otherwise they would vote with their feet. Even in Lakewood, you have autonomy. You can choose to bus your kid to a school outside of Lakewood if the rules bother you or you can homeschool or you can move or you can start a new school. You aren't stuck. If you choose to be a part of the greater Lakewood community and choose to utilize the schools in the community then you are agreeing to the rules.

Do I think the rules are crazy? Absolutely. As a student, I fought hard against any rule that wasn't in the handbook and refused to remove things like my ankle bracelet since there was no rule against it. A few years after I left the school, they implemented a rule "No stylish haircuts." Crazy, but it's not a school that I would ever consider sending my kids to. I send my kids to a normal school with rules that make sense to me or rules that I can live with.

Yeshivos and bais yaakovs are not businesses, the regular rules of competition do not apply to them. The schools, and thw people who run them  have tremendous ammount of power and influence.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

In 15 seconds on google I found more than 5 places on DDF where I did that. How many can either of you find you big talkers?

You had to use Google, you couldn't remember? That should tell you something. 

[saw50st8]

Yeshivos and bais yaakovs are not businesses, the regular rules of competition do not apply to them. The schools, and thw people who run them  have tremendous ammount of power and influence.

Because people give them that power. I do not, therefore they have no control over me. If you choose to allow them to control your life, then it's on you.

(There are people are who are literally forced due to divorce agreements and whatnot and I feel terrible for them)

[aygart]

Yeshivos and bais yaakovs are not businesses, the regular rules of competition do not apply to them. The schools, and thw people who run them  have tremendous ammount of power and influence.

Untrue. All the time people choose to send to different schools because they do not wish to keep to the standards of others.

[aygart]

You had to use Google, you couldn't remember? That should tell you something. 

How many do you remember?

[Sport]

Untrue. All the time people choose to send to different schools because they do not wish to keep to the standards of others.

That in no way disproves that they are not businesses. Do you not agree the mosdos hold a tremendous ammount of power and influence?

[sky121]

This image was not showing up in Tapa by me for some reason. It definitely answers this.The setting in which they did this is does not seem appropriate based on this letter and as such I went too far in my criticism of the letter writer. The letter writer also gave a wrong impression of them being publicly humiliated which I just do not see considering it being done as part of a lice check and also at this point having seen the video. It was done very similar to the lice check and not the formal setting the letter gave an impression of. If someone has lice they need to get rid of them and if someone's hair is too long they need to cut it. The real offense was that the school had the cutzpa of having a tznius standard that she didn't want to keep to. Who decided on hair length? These are guidelines which rabbonim are behind. Look in R Falk's book. Can one disagree, possibly, but they have every right to have the standard

(Side pt.  Do you think even the majority of the Yeshivish velt hold to everything the way R' Falk writes?    Have you read that book? Even most off the "frummest" Yeshivish people I know don't hold with everything that is written in that book?  Anyway.. that's a sep issue..)




 Let's agree - A school can make any standard they want.      Yes.   And can parents and the communities speak out? Yes.
It's as simple as that.


Can I have issue with a school that's part of my religion and part of my community of people creating standards which I believe can be harmful to our community and our kids and our religion?

You bet I can.

[aygart]

That in no way disproves that they are not businesses. Do you not agree the mosdos hold a tremendous ammount of power and influence?

They do have influence, but that does not change the fact that for the vast majority of kids it was the choice of the parents to send to the school they are in.

I guarantee that half the people complaining about this are people who jumped through all sorts of hoops to get their girls into davka this school and the school may have even felt it was not an appropriate school for that family. Now they feel the need to bring the school down to their standards and then will wonder why they have issues getting their daughters into the high school they want. There are schools with more relaxed standards than Bnos Yaakov which they could have sent to without the hoops they needed to jump through to get into Bnos Yaakov. Don't send to a school whose standards you don't wish to keep. If you send there anyhow it is your fault and not the school's.

[cholent]

I am a parent in this school.

First of all, it is an incredible school. Far from what has been assumed here and wherever this video is being discussed, they give over an excitement and pride of Yiddishkeit to their students. The principal is an incredible woman. She knows every girl in the school, and any of my daughters will tell you that she loves them. When people talk about how schools should be teaching students to love and live Yiddishkeit instead of just seeing it as a list of dry rules, they should be looking at this school for how to do that.

All that said, there is nothing wrong with a school having rules and enforcing them. The school has always had a rule that when hair is worn down it should not be beyond a certain length. This year they extended that, saying that all hair should not be longer than 4 inches below the shoulder. This rule may be new for this year, but is very much in consonance with the overall rules of the school and standard of tznius that they have had for many years. Any parent who is upset about this rule didn't do even basic research about the school before sending there. This is not an out of town community school. This is Lakewood, with countless girls schools, and whoever sent here did so because they were looking for this particular standard.

Incidentally, the school did send out letters to parents signed by a prominent local Rav who is on the school's Rabbinical advisory board, asking mothers to be aware of how long sheitels have become standard and suggesting a sheitel length. Mothers are not students, but the school did ask parents to be partners with them in maintaining a standard of tznius.

For those who are calling this child abuse, just don't tell my daughters they are being abused. Nobody actually there thought it was a huge deal, more like it was funny. None of my daughters are confused about what is halacha and what is chumra, none of them think long hair is the same as not covering knees. They know the halachos of tznius and they know that there is an overall tzura of tznius that the school is aiming for.

Finally, as others have mentioned above, this was during nit check. It was not during school. There are no more than a small handful of people in the room at any time, and nobody was made to feel embarrassed. The girls whose hair was too long were simply told to please get a haircut before school started. There was no shaming, no public spectacle... and it was done by a secretary, not even a principal or teacher. Again, not one girl in the room looked like it was a big deal. Yes, it was new, and girls who liked their hair long may have been upset to have to cut it, but none of them felt embarrassed or "abused".

[sky121]

I am a parent in this school.

First of all, it is an incredible school. Far from what has been assumed here and wherever this video is being discussed, they give over an excitement and pride of Yiddishkeit to their students. The principal is an incredible woman. She knows every girl in the school, and any of my daughters will tell you that she loves them. When people talk about how schools should be teaching students to love and live Yiddishkeit instead of just seeing it as a list of dry rules, they should be looking at this school for how to do that.

All that said, there is nothing wrong with a school having rules and enforcing them. The school has always had a rule that when hair is worn down it should not be beyond a certain length. This year they extended that, saying that all hair should not be longer than 4 inches below the shoulder. This rule may be new for this year, but is very much in consonance with the overall rules of the school and standard of tznius that they have had for many years. Any parent who is upset about this rule didn't do even basic research about the school before sending there. This is not an out of town community school. This is Lakewood, with countless girls schools, and whoever sent here did so because they were looking for this particular standard.

Incidentally, the school did send out letters to parents signed by a prominent local Rav who is on the school's Rabbinical advisory board, asking mothers to be aware of how long sheitels have become standard and suggesting a sheitel length. Mothers are not students, but the school did ask parents to be partners with them in maintaining a standard of tznius.

For those who are calling this child abuse, just don't tell my daughters they are being abused. Nobody actually there thought it was a huge deal, more like it was funny. None of my daughters are confused about what is halacha and what is chumra, none of them think long hair is the same as not covering knees. They know the halachos of tznius and they know that there is an overall tzura of tznius that the school is aiming for.

Finally, as others have mentioned above, this was during nit check. It was not during school. There are no more than a small handful of people in the room at any time, and nobody was made to feel embarrassed. The girls whose hair was too long were simply told to please get a haircut before school started. There was no shaming, no public spectacle... and it was done by a secretary, not even a principal or teacher. Again, not one girl in the room looked like it was a big deal. Yes, it was new, and girls who liked their hair long may have been upset to have to cut it, but none of them felt embarrassed or "abused".

Thanks for clarifying. Personally I in no way thought it to be abuse nor did I know or seem to think anyone was particularly embarrassed.   And I believe that they might be a good school.  I hardly fault the school as much as I do the whole system we've created. And I still feel that it's ok to speak out about "chumras" that we're creating that I personally find to cause very little positivity and if anything create more judgement, reasons to look down on others and a disconnect from Yiddeshkeit.

I, like your daughters also find it funny.

And on one hand I don't think it's a big deal.

On the other I believe if we don't put a stop to these kinds of things it will just continue to get worse and worse. 

[Moshe123]

We are at a time when enforcing tznius guidelines that are common sense is somehow a bad thing.

[aygart]

(Side pt.  Do you think even the majority of the Yeshivish velt hold to everything the way R' Falk writes?    Have you read that book? Even most off the "frummest" Yeshivish people I know don't hold with everything that is written in that book?  Anyway.. that's a sep issue..)




 Let's agree - A school can make any standard they want.      Yes.   And can parents and the communities speak out? Yes.
It's as simple as that.


Can I have issue with a school that's part of my religion and part of my community of people creating standards which I believe can be harmful to our community and our kids and our religion?

You bet I can.

I understand these feelings. On the other hand, Lakewood once was a community which did keep mostly to those standards even if not to each and every specific ruling. Lakewood was a yeshiva based community and had matching tznius standards. Those from that original community are not obligated to lower their standards due to those who came for cheaper housing etc. but do not wish to conform. THere is unfortunately undue influence from the outside world to lower tznius standards. They are trying to fight that influence and are right for doing so. There are styles which many will yell how there is nothing wrong with them which are specifically called out in the gemora as being pritzusdik.

[aygart]

The concept of a hairstyle be untznius is not a new one at all. It is a Magen Avraham.


It is based on this Magen Avraham that yerushalmi girls will always wear their hair in braids. Obviously, this is not the minhag in most American communities as stated by the Machtzis Hasekel that the custom is for unmarried girls to have their hair on their shoulders. (note that the Yad Efraim explains the Magen Avraham based on the Rashi quoted by the Machtzis Hasekel)


The concept of restrictions on the hair of unmarried girl can still be seen from there. Each community's standards should be set by the rabbonim of that community and not by some random guy who "feels they are going too far" with no real basis other than their feelings.

[aygart]

You had to use Google, you couldn't remember? That should tell you something. 

Still none from the big talkers even with google. Hmmmmmmm

[sky121]

The concept of a hairstyle be untznius is not a new one at all. It is a Magen Avraham.

The concept of restrictions on the hair of unmarried girl can still be seen from there. Each community's standards should be set by the rabbonim of that community and not by some random guy who "feels they are going too far" with no real basis other than their feelings.

You assume everyone is just some random person basing it all on feelings. I disagree.

Meanwhile we can't even talk about the issue because everyone is too busy fighting about who even has a right to speak.


 Nothing new here folks...

[aygart]

You assume everyone is just some random person basing it all on feelings. I disagree.

No, but some are, such as the YW letter writer and YW themselves.

[rs242]

Sorry to go off topic. How long till the school figures out which parent took that video.

[CS1]

The concept of restrictions on the hair of unmarried girl can still be seen from there. Each community's standards should be set by the rabbonim of that community and not by some random guy who "feels they are going too far" with no real basis other than their feelings.

these girls are wearing their hair in braids or pulled-back every day in school anyway. The length can be glanced at for the school rule; and it's not worn like that in school anyway. it's the measuring with the ruler that can make young children feel like objects. What's next, the inches on a sleeve, skirt, pants, payos?

[cholent]

these girls are wearing their hair in braids or pulled-back every day in school anyway. The length can be glanced at for the school rule; and it's not worn like that in school anyway. it's the measuring with the ruler that can make young children feel like objects. What's next, the inches on a sleeve, skirt, pants, payos?

Actually, the school wasn't measuring. They were eyeballing. It was the mother who measured, I guess because they told her it's up to her