Author Topic: Hairgate  (Read 31934 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2017, 07:26:23 PM »
That is sick and I am done.
Huh? I've been in corporate environments, where the official dress code called specifically for neat and relatively normal hair.
Why is that sick? They call it business casual or wtvr.

Offline sky121

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2017, 07:28:10 PM »
That is sick and I am done.
And therein lies the issue with every frumkeit that involves women in modern times. From erasing their pictures in magazines to making little girls wear tights all the time to this. The women are not the issue. It is the sick perverts that cannot be held to a normal standard where young girls are not objectified. I fully underatand your disgust.
That's his real question
What's really just sad is that there are those who literally just think you don't understand.  And don't even hear what you're saying or why it's weird.  It's very easy for things to become normal in people's heads.   Which is the reason I think it's important to speak out in the first place about these things in our community.  Otherwise they become 'acceptable'.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline jackofall

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2017, 08:06:27 PM »
What's really just sad is that there are those who literally just think you don't understand.  And don't even hear what you're saying or why it's weird.  It's very easy for things to become normal in people's heads.   Which is the reason I think it's important to speak out in the first place about these things in our community.  Otherwise they become 'acceptable'.
As a frum Jew the only "normal" point of reference is our mesorah/Halacha. All other ideas of what seems normal/appropriate etc have absolutely no place in yideshkiet.
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Offline sky121

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2017, 08:07:49 PM »
As a frum Jew the only "normal" point of reference is our mesorah/Halacha. All other ideas of what seems normal/appropriate etc have absolutely no place in yideshkiet.
Yes but we live in a world where things do become 'normal'.

Things that aren't halacha or mesora.     And that aren't necessarily helping us in a positive way.

Some are.

But some aren't. 
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline jackofall

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2017, 08:12:41 PM »
Yes but we live in a world where things do become 'normal'.

Things that aren't halacha or mesora.     And that aren't necessarily helping us in a positive way.

Some are.

But some aren't.
Normal? There are mesorah's that are extreme when compared to others and vise versa. They are very normal for those people and might be required. Length of hair is definitely something that people have a mesorah on.
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Offline sky121

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #165 on: September 05, 2017, 08:14:13 PM »
Normal? There are mesorah's that are extreme when compared to others and vise versa. They are very normal for those people and might be required. Length of hair is definitely something that people have a mesorah on.
That's fine. It's more the idea of why he thinks that question is crazy.   


 Not the actual mesorah, minhag etc.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #166 on: September 05, 2017, 08:56:26 PM »
Length of hair is definitely something that people have a mesorah on.
Please cite to such mesorah. And dont cite to Oz Vehadar as that is a contemporary source with little more than one man's opinions.
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Offline jackofall

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #167 on: September 05, 2017, 09:00:01 PM »
Please cite to such mesorah. And dont cite to Oz Vehadar as that is a contemporary source with little more than one man's opinions.
My mother and Grandmother.
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Online aygart

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #168 on: September 05, 2017, 09:06:46 PM »
Please cite to such mesorah. And dont cite to Oz Vehadar as that is a contemporary source with little more than one man's opinions.
The concept of a hairstyle be untznius is not a new one at all. It is a Magen Avraham.


It is based on this Magen Avraham that yerushalmi girls will always wear their hair in braids. Obviously, this is not the minhag in most American communities as stated by the Machtzis Hasekel that the custom is for unmarried girls to have their hair on their shoulders. (note that the Yad Efraim explains the Magen Avraham based on the Rashi quoted by the Machtzis Hasekel)


The concept of restrictions on the hair of unmarried girl can still be seen from there. Each community's standards should be set by the rabbonim of that community and not by some random guy who "feels they are going too far" with no real basis other than their feelings.


Also, R' Falk spent a lot of time sourcing his psakim. Not all agree with them but he has sources.

Many of the standards which are used by the Lakewood schools are based upon standards which R' Shneur set for the community. R' Forscheimer wrote a booklet of guidelines based on these. This is the source for the standards of most Lakewood schools. The rabbonim in your community may have different standards, but the ones here are well sourced.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 09:12:50 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2017, 09:14:07 PM »
I asked for a mesorah on length. Length is but one aspect of what you cite to. He has no mesorah other than his mother and grandmother who probably shave their heads and didnt have a mesorah or rule on length.

R' Falk may have sources all he wants. His entire sefer is based in chumrah. To pasken l'chumrah because men cant control themselves is not halacha. Women have to conform so as not to tempt men. Thays the premise of his sefer. 
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Online aygart

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2017, 09:22:07 PM »
I asked for a mesorah on length. Length is but one aspect of what you cite to. He has no mesorah other than his mother and grandmother who probably shave their heads and didnt have a mesorah or rule on length.

R' Falk may have sources all he wants. His entire sefer is based in chumrah. To pasken l'chumrah because men cant control themselves is not halacha. Women have to conform so as not to tempt men. Thays the premise of his sefer. 
The length mentioned by Rashi is on the shoulders. He does not feel that it is based on chumros. R Mattisyahu Salamon quotes him as saying "There aree very very few chumros". Many dinim of tznius are based on what tempts men. That is the gemara in Shabbos about high heels and perfume. The Chazon Ish which everyone relies on to allow short sleeves for girl over 3 years old (arguing oin the MB) is based on the premise that ALL tznius is based on that while the MB holds that some are independent of that but not all.

As I added before (probably after you started replying)
Many of the standards which are used by the Lakewood schools are based upon standards which R' Shneur set for the community. R' Forscheimer wrote a booklet of guidelines based on these. This is the source for the standards of most Lakewood schools. The rabbonim in your community may have different standards, but the ones here are well sourced.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2017, 09:37:58 PM »
The length mentioned by Rashi is on the shoulders. He does not feel that it is based on chumros. R Mattisyahu Salamon quotes him as saying "There aree very very few chumros". Many dinim of tznius are based on what tempts men. That is the gemara in Shabbos about high heels and perfume. The Chazon Ish which everyone relies on to allow short sleeves for girl over 3 years old (arguing oin the MB) is based on the premise that ALL tznius is based on that while the MB holds that some are independent of that but not all.

As I added before (probably after you started replying)
You proved my points more than once. 
1. His opinion of what Rashi means.
2. His opinion of what is, or is not, chumra.
3. That all of it is based on supposedly frum men who may not be able to control themselves.

What happened to working on your taivos? Why the pressure on women to follow outlandish chumros because men wont be able to control themselves. Since when are bnai torah incapable of staying away from what tempts them? When you make everything taboo the taboo becomes the focus.
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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #172 on: September 05, 2017, 09:46:18 PM »
You proved my points more than once. 
1. His opinion of what Rashi means.
2. His opinion of what is, or is not, chumra.
3. That all of it is based on supposedly frum men who may not be able to control themselves.

What happened to working on your taivos? Why the pressure on women to follow outlandish chumros because men wont be able to control themselves. Since when are bnai torah incapable of staying away from what tempts them? When you make everything taboo the taboo becomes the focus.
Of course it is his opinion and understanding of the sources. If you have a different understanding of his sources then go ahead and present it. If the rabbonim in your community have a different understanding then follow them. Why do you have a problem with a school which follows the standards set by their rabbonim? It is appropriate for Lakewood to follow R Schneur's guidelines. Why do you have a problem with it? They are not telling Teaneck or queens or Cleveland or Chicago to keep to them. Why do you feel a need to impose those standards in Lakewood?
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Offline jackofall

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #173 on: September 05, 2017, 09:57:09 PM »

What happened to working on your taivos? Why the pressure on women to follow outlandish chumros because men wont be able to control themselves. Since when are bnai torah incapable of staying away from what tempts them? When you make everything taboo the taboo becomes the focus.
This☝️Is is your own "thinking" of how tzinus should calculated and Has nothing to do with halacha/minhag.
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Offline cf

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #174 on: September 05, 2017, 10:22:04 PM »
You proved my points more than once. 
1. His opinion of what Rashi means.
2. His opinion of what is, or is not, chumra.
3. That all of it is based on supposedly frum men who may not be able to control themselves.

What happened to working on your taivos? Why the pressure on women to follow outlandish chumros because men wont be able to control themselves. Since when are bnai torah incapable of staying away from what tempts them? When you make everything taboo the taboo becomes the focus.
Are you against the halacha of tznuis?

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #175 on: September 05, 2017, 10:29:41 PM »
Are you against the halacha of tznuis?
Not at all. Im just sick of the objectification of women in the name of tznius. The prime example of that is in the erasure of them from pur publications because of...what? Men.
This☝️Is is your own "thinking" of how tzinus should calculated and Has nothing to do with halacha/minhag.
Because your mesorah was on hair length, let me guess, shaved bald because that's how Sara Imeinu was. Avraham avinu also wore a shtreimel. Please dont lecture when you cant differentiate between chumrah and halacha.

Of course it is his opinion and understanding of the sources. If you have a different understanding of his sources then go ahead and present it. If the rabbonim in your community have a different understanding then follow them. Why do you have a problem with a school which follows the standards set by their rabbonim? It is appropriate for Lakewood to follow R Schneur's guidelines. Why do you have a problem with it? They are not telling Teaneck or queens or Cleveland or Chicago to keep to them. Why do you feel a need to impose those standards in Lakewood?
Not seeking to impose stamdards on anyone. That job has already been taken. Also, Rav Aharon z'l wouldnt allow shtreimelech in Lakewood, if you're so hell bent on והיה מחנך קדוש start with that, leave the women alone.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #176 on: September 05, 2017, 10:42:51 PM »
Idk, but the frum schools I'm familiar with are far more particular about the length of boys hair than girls. I'd venture a guess that holds true for Lakewood. No one is accusing them of objectifying men.


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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #177 on: September 05, 2017, 10:52:11 PM »


Not seeking to impose stamdards on anyone. That job has already been taken. Also, Rav Aharon z'l wouldnt allow shtreimelech in Lakewood, if you're so hell bent on והיה מחנך קדוש start with that, leave the women alone.
I'm not seeking to impose standards I'm only saying that if you don't keep to a standard that has no relevance you can't keep this either.

This is a real stupid argument and you know it. This makes it very clear that you are arguing from emotions not intellect.
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Offline jackofall

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #178 on: September 05, 2017, 11:19:21 PM »
Because your mesorah was on hair length, let me guess, shaved bald because that's how Sara Imeinu was. Avraham avinu also wore a shtreimel. Please dont lecture when you cant differentiate between chumrah and halacha.
No one ever said some of these are not Chumros/mesorah.
You are denigrating a minhag that thousands of thousand of jews from lots of different stripes of yideshkeit practice.
To say that these minhagim have no place in yideshkeit is to have a very narrow mind.
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Offline cf

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Re: Hairgate
« Reply #179 on: September 06, 2017, 12:10:27 AM »
What's your definition of tznuis? Is a woman allowed to dress in a way that attracts men?