Author Topic: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?  (Read 10088 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2017, 06:02:33 PM »
My father lost his job, the local yeshiva sent us home midday, took us out of class, myself, siblings and other kids who were behind on tuition, the shame of this never went away, I was 10, my brother was 6 and is still to this day very hurt by it, we stayed home for some time and went to other schools later.

So yeah I do have a grudge maybe but I also have valid issues
That is in no way a typical occurrence. The school is 100% in the wrong here. This an unusual circumstance and a challenge that God gives only to people whom he knows are strong enough to surmount it.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline michael.klatsky1

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are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2017, 01:02:27 AM »
Most mainstream Orthodox Jewish private schools tuition levels aren't so out of whack with the average cost per student in public school. In NY the average is about $20k per student, with the national average being about $11k. (Florida happens to be on the low end of the spectrum.)

http://www.governing.com/topics/education/gov-education-funding-states.html
This citation needs to stop. The chart in the article states that the cost of instruction in NY is $8700 per student. The rest is most employee benefits, like excellent premium free healthcare, generous paid leave, pensions and ALSO, pupil support services like textbooks, school food and buses hat are provided to all students as part of this figure.

Offline henche

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2017, 07:00:32 AM »
This citation needs to stop. The chart in the article states that the cost of instruction in NY is $8700 per student. The rest is most employee benefits, like excellent premium free healthcare, generous paid leave, pensions and ALSO, pupil support services like textbooks, school food and buses hat are provided to all students as part of this figure.

Not sure I follow.

Are you trying to say that all the rest is optional stuff? Seems like employee comp is part of the cost.  And textbooks. You may think public schools overpay, but it definitely gotta into the comparison

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2017, 07:48:01 AM »
This citation needs to stop. The chart in the article states that the cost of instruction in NY is $8700 per student. The rest is most employee benefits, like excellent premium free healthcare, generous paid leave, pensions and ALSO, pupil support services like textbooks, school food and buses hat are provided to all students as part of this figure.

Therefore, most Jewish day schools that provide the dual "Hebrew/Judaic" and "General Studies" curriculum would require at least an additional 60% in funding to cover these additional costs.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2017, 08:25:59 AM »
Not sure if this is Miami only but so many people I talk to work at the local chabad school and often it boils down to getting a discount for their kids... So in short it's like this flow chart :

School charges a ton - pays crap - parents that work there get discount for kids while being paid crap - school claims that they need to charge a ton and pay crap because low cash flow - conviently ignoring the teacher patent discounts.

So, parents are slaves to the institution, quality teacher without Kids there would work there given the terrible wages, the school has cash flow issues due to this and it pretty much helps foster nepotism and coddles friends.

Reason #250 id never send my kids to a traditional yeshiva operating like this

I'm a consumer and I chose my kids school. It's a fantastic school that fosters educational growth, a quality Torah education and a warm environment. It's hard to pay for but it's worth every penny. If I didn't think it was worth it, I would find another solution.

Many people feel trapped in the local school, but the truth is that there are options. Even if there is only one school in town, you can homeschool, move, hire a tutor, send to public school or commute. I'm sure there are other options people can think about.

The cost of tuition is the largest burden for most people I know. At least make sure that you are getting good value.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2017, 08:37:56 AM »
I'm a consumer and I chose my kids school. It's a fantastic school that fosters educational growth, a quality Torah education and a warm environment. It's hard to pay for but it's worth every penny. If I didn't think it was worth it, I would find another solution.

Many people feel trapped in the local school, but the truth is that there are options. Even if there is only one school in town,you can homeschool, move, hire a tutor, send to public school or commute. I'm sure there are other options people can think about.

The cost of tuition is the largest burden for most people I know. At least make sure that you are getting good value.
Let's be real here, most of these are not viable options for 90%+ people.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2017, 08:41:39 AM »
Let's be real here, most of these are not viable options for 90%+ people.

Eh, they are more real than people give them credit for. They might be hard. They might require moving more than 4 blocks from where you grew up. Just because you don't like your choices in life, doesn't mean that you don't have them. I actually know people who made hard choices and did homeschool or move or hire a tutor or send to public school or have their kids commute (or the parents).

There are also very few cities where choices don't exist. Maybe in Postville.




Offline mmgfarb

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2017, 08:50:10 AM »
Eh, they are more real than people give them credit for. They might be hard. They might require moving more than 4 blocks from where you grew up. Just because you don't like your choices in life, doesn't mean that you don't have them. I actually know people who made hard choices and did homeschool or move or hire a tutor or send to public school or have their kids commute (or the parents).

There are also very few cities where choices don't exist. Maybe in Postville.
Not everyone has the luxury of moving somewhere just for the school, many people live where they have a good job. It's also very hard to homeschool if both parents work and isn't necessarily the right thing for many kids. I'm not saying that these aren't options for anyone to consider but none for them do anything to help the cause of the problem.
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Offline saw50st8

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2017, 08:56:39 AM »
Not everyone has the luxury of moving somewhere just for the school, many people live where they have a good job. It's also very hard to homeschool if both parents work and isn't necessarily the right thing for many kids. I'm not saying that these aren't options for anyone to consider but none for them do anything to help the cause of the problem.

I agree that the cost is a huge issue. I also agree that those options aren't always viable for everyone. But if you reread the OP, he's complaining that people feel like they are enslaved by the institution they chose. 

As to the cost of education - the only way to really reduce the cost is to have large endowments or have a broader pool of people supporting the cause. At the end of the day quality teachers cost money. Where I live, the teachers are adequately paid and provide an exceptional education.  The teachers are educated and devoted. That costs money and someone has to pay for it.  The school my kids attend is 40% cheaper than the other local options but it's still a lot of money, especially if you have multiple kids.

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2017, 09:00:01 AM »
I'm a consumer and I chose my kids school. It's a fantastic school that fosters educational growth, a quality Torah education and a warm environment. It's hard to pay for but it's worth every penny. If I didn't think it was worth it, I would find another solution.

Many people feel trapped in the local school, but the truth is that there are options. Even if there is only one school in town, you can homeschool, move, hire a tutor, send to public school or commute. I'm sure there are other options people can think about.

The cost of tuition is the largest burden for most people I know. At least make sure that you are getting good value.

And that is exactly where the priorities are -- how we determine the "value of education". If that is held above nice cars, restaurant meals, and Pesach vacations, then it's a top priority. for the author of the "$40K jew" article, quality Jewish day school education may be a different value.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2017, 09:07:28 AM »
And that is exactly where the priorities are -- how we determine the "value of education". If that is held above nice cars, restaurant meals, and Pesach vacations, then it's a top priority. for the author of the "$40K jew" article, quality Jewish day school education may be a different value.
There are many people not driving nice cars, eating at restaurants, and going to hotels for pesach who still can't afford their tuition....
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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2017, 09:34:34 AM »
Not sure I follow.

Are you trying to say that all the rest is optional stuff? Seems like employee comp is part of the cost.  And textbooks. You may think public schools overpay, but it definitely gotta into the comparison
When is the last time a Jewish school offered valuable employee benefits, or paid for textbooks, lunch or buses? (They don't offer or pay for these). The former isn't offered and the latter is bundled into the state cost per pupil, under subcategory "pupil support services". Yeshiva's don't pay for either of those categories that make up the NY state cost of instruction. 

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2017, 09:37:09 AM »
Therefore, most Jewish day schools that provide the dual "Hebrew/Judaic" and "General Studies" curriculum would require at least an additional 60% in funding to cover these additional costs.

Since Jewish schools usually only offer the bare minimum, I would say not. Public schools offer a much wider variety of classes, with the extra subjects, hands on classes, and extracurriculars.

Offline henche

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2017, 09:47:37 AM »
When is the last time a Jewish school offered valuable employee benefits, or paid for textbooks, lunch or buses? (They don't offer or pay for these). The former isn't offered and the latter is bundled into the state cost per pupil, under subcategory "pupil support services". Yeshiva's don't pay for either of those categories that make up the NY state cost of instruction.

I'm just not following your point. 

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2017, 09:49:54 AM »
I'm just not following your point.
1. Yeshivas don't offer pensions to their teachers the way public schools do, so that cost isn't there.
2. The $1000 or so NY spends on student support services is given to private schools as well, another cost not borne by the yeshiva.

Therefore the number you should be comparing with is $8700, the cost of instruction in NY. 

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2017, 09:49:59 AM »
There's no comparison between how public school budgets are allocated and how private schools can choose to allocate their funding, I'm not sure why that's even part of the discussion here.
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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2017, 10:04:26 AM »
There are many people not driving nice cars, eating at restaurants, and going to hotels for pesach who still can't afford their tuition....
Yes, but if more of those who are would pay their tuition then the schools would be in much better shape.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2017, 10:06:00 AM »
There's no comparison between how public school budgets are allocated and how private schools can choose to allocate their funding, I'm not sure why that's even part of the discussion here.

It was the 2nd post on the costs between the two. Also, isn't the private sector supposed to be able to get things done more cheaply?

Offline mmgfarb

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are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2017, 10:12:48 AM »
It was the 2nd post on the costs between the two. Also, isn't the private sector supposed to be able to get things done more cheaply?
Yes, the only reason tuition is as high as it is, is to have those paying full tuition covering those who can't. There's no way it costs anywhere near $20k a year per child in a frum school.
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Re: are parents enslaved to yeshiva?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2017, 10:17:02 AM »
Yes, the only reason tuition is as high as it is, is to have those paying full tuition covering those who can't. There's no way it costs anywhere near $20k a year per child in a frum school.

correct. In most cities, if every single student paid $12-$14K/yr then all educational costs would be covered. Even a $25-$30K cap per family would do well (if 100% of families would be involved) to encourage multiple students per family to attend and not increase pressure on large, Jewish families.
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