Author Topic: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash  (Read 13016 times)

Offline Shauly101

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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 12:07:09 PM »
being bashed for saying the truth in their face

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/16/mayim-bialik-targeted-for-victim-blaming-responds-to-backlash-on-twitter.html
Its only monday but paging @ChaimMoskowitz

She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault. Tznius may be a geder to gender interaction, but not a prevention tool. That is probably what she meant to say. But in a world where gender separation is not understood in the tznius sense it come across as victim shaming instead. Syag L'chochma ...shteeka.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 12:10:52 PM »
Its only monday but paging @ChaimMoskowitz

She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault. Tznius may be a geder to gender interaction, but not a prevention tool. That is probably what she meant to say. But in a world where gender separation is not understood in the tznius sense it come across as victim shaming instead. Syag L'chochma ...shteeka.

That's not at all what she said. Don't blame her for your lack of reading comprehension.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 12:12:40 PM »
That's not at all what she said. Don't blame her for your lack of reading comprehension.
He of the "next wednesday" lectures about reading comprehension. Please enlighten us to what you think she said.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »
Its only monday but paging @ChaimMoskowitz

She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault. Tznius may be a geder to gender interaction, but not a prevention tool. That is probably what she meant to say. But in a world where gender separation is not understood in the tznius sense it come across as victim shaming instead. Syag L'chochma ...shteeka.
Tznius not preventing can be true even if dressing in a provocative manner makes it more likely. My baseless assumption would be that dress would matter much more when there is no longer term relationship. As it becomes libo gas bah dress would matter less.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 12:36:46 PM »
He of the "next wednesday" lectures about reading comprehension. Please enlighten us to what you think she said.

May all your lectures be so short and to the point :-)

You don't need me to come up with explanations and interpretations, you can just read her piece again. She doesn't blame the victims. She does say that modest dress and behavior can and does prevent many things, but doesn't say it prevents all abuse, assault or harassment.

With today's need to check boxes and put everyone on a specific side of an issue, we spout absolutes ("She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault") and end up losing any and all nuance or place for reasoned discussion.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 12:47:22 PM »
Its only monday but paging @ChaimMoskowitz
In LAS and don't have time right now.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 12:48:09 PM »
May all your lectures be so short and to the point :-)

You don't need me to come up with explanations and interpretations, you can just read her piece again. She doesn't blame the victims. She does say that modest dress and behavior can and does prevent many things, but doesn't say it prevents all abuse, assault or harassment.

With today's need to check boxes and put everyone on a specific side of an issue, we spout absolutes ("She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault") and end up losing any and all nuance or place for reasoned discussion.
Please explain how dressing modestly affected every frum tznius-dressed rape victim. Dress has nothing to do with sexual abuse. Thats not check box stuff. Thats basics. Modest dress and behavior may prevent licentiousness on the part of the person so dressing and behaving. However, it never dictates the behavior of the abuser. Therefore, any suggestion that the victim's dress had anything to do with the abuse is victim shaming.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 12:48:50 PM »
In LAS and don't have time right now.
Say hi to all the Jews there. Heard planeloads left NY to 2 conventions the minute the holiday was over.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 12:56:21 PM »
Please explain how dressing modestly affected every frum tznius-dressed rape victim. Dress has nothing to do with sexual abuse. Thats not check box stuff. Thats basics. Modest dress and behavior may prevent licentiousness on the part of the person so dressing and behaving. However, it never dictates the behavior of the abuser. Therefore, any suggestion that the victim's dress had anything to do with the abuse is victim shaming.
Just because it doesn't prevent all instances doesn't mean that it has "nothing to do". As I wrote before
Tznius not preventing can be true even if dressing in a provocative manner makes it more likely. My baseless assumption would be that dress would matter much more when there is no longer term relationship. As it becomes libo gas bah dress would matter less.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 01:00:09 PM »
Please explain how dressing modestly affected every frum tznius-dressed rape victim.
No one said it did.
Dress has nothing to do with sexual abuse. Thats not check box stuff. Thats basics.
No one said it did.
Modest dress and behavior may prevent licentiousness on the part of the person so dressing and behaving. However, it never dictates the behavior of the abuser.
Nice lecture (to borrow a term). You sure about that never, though? I'm not aware of facts either way, but I'd be surprised if it *never* played a role. But either way, no one said otherwise.
Therefore, any suggestion that the victim's dress had anything to do with the abuse is victim shaming.
No one made such a suggestion.

Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 01:04:56 PM »
Does having done something which makes it more likely to be the victim of a crime mean that you are shaming them?

If someone walks through a high crime neighborhood wearing very visible diamond jewelry making it very obvious that they have valuables with them are they at fault for the crime if they are held up? Did their actions making it more likely? Is saying that the crime may not have occurred with more more discretion shaming them?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 01:37:32 PM »
Does having done something which makes it more likely to be the victim of a crime mean that you are shaming them?

If someone walks through a high crime neighborhood wearing very visible diamond jewelry making it very obvious that they have valuables with them are they at fault for the crime if they are held up? Did their actions making it more likely? Is saying that the crime may not have occurred with more more discretion shaming them?
SMH
Blaming a woman who wears nontznius clothing for being assaulted because of those clothing is victim shaming.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 01:40:05 PM »
SMH
Blaming a woman who wears nontznius clothing for being assaulted because of those clothing is victim shaming.
You didn't address even one of my points. Did you even read what I wrote?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 01:57:50 PM »
May all your lectures be so short and to the point :-)

You don't need me to come up with explanations and interpretations, you can just read her piece again. She doesn't blame the victims. She does say that modest dress and behavior can and does prevent many things, but doesn't say it prevents all abuse, assault or harassment.

With today's need to check boxes and put everyone on a specific side of an issue, we spout absolutes ("She victim shamed. Tznius does not prevent sexual assault") and end up losing any and all nuance or place for reasoned discussion.

+1000

I'm pretty sure almost everyone here would agree on two points:

1) No matter how a woman dresses or how much she flirts, sexual assault is never excusable.

2) Western culture's objectification of women increases the likelihood of inexcusable sexual assaults by men.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2017, 02:22:56 PM »
+1000

I'm pretty sure almost everyone here would agree on two points:

1) No matter how a woman dresses or how much she flirts, sexual assault is never excusable.

2) Western culture's objectification of women increases the likelihood of inexcusable sexual assaults by men.
And her article says...

That her dressing modestly has cut down on her likelihood of (or actually) being assaulted.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 02:29:45 PM »
And her article says...

That her dressing modestly has cut down on her likelihood of (or actually) being assaulted.
Where? Do you have anything to back up your assertion that it didn't?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2017, 02:36:47 PM »
Where? Do you have anything to back up your assertion that it didn't?
"I dress modestly. I don’t act flirtatiously with men as a policy"...and if I did...
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Offline aygart

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2017, 02:39:26 PM »
"I dress modestly. I don’t act flirtatiously with men as a policy"...and if I did...
The context in which she wrote that i that she does not participate in the societal objectification of women. Of course the second part was ignored.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Mayim Bialik NY Times Op-Ed Backlash
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2017, 02:45:25 PM »
The context in which she wrote that i that she does not participate in the societal objectification of women. Of course the second part was ignored.
What do you mean?

Again, if you accept what she says as true and she does not participate in the objectification of women, then you must accept that objectification of women leads to sexual assault. Meaning, the woman had a part in getting herself assaulted. Ergo victim shaming. I dont say I agree with her detractors. there is much to be taken form her op-ed. But still how is it not victim shaming if a woman can, even minutely, be blamed for her own assault? 

Thats linear logic. I cannot fathom why this simple step is so hard to grasp. If "A" then "B". If no "A" then no "B".
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