Opiod addictions

[hvaces42]

Have you heard anything I said?

You said that people can be cured. I say people can say they have it under control and it aint so.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

You said that people can be cured. I say people can say they have it under control and it aint so.

You are wrong. Not sure how else to put it. You want a real life example?

[hvaces42]

You are wrong. Not sure how else to put it. You want a real life example?

No. We've discussed that. Still not convinced. Seen more the other way to know that its a one off or rarity. 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

No. We've discussed that. Still not convinced. Seen more the other way to know that its a one off or rarity.

Of course there is more the other way but it happens and a lot more than you have seen.

[chevron]

Giving up smoking was scary, the cigarette is so ingrained in your head, you cannot conceive life without it.

Drinking is similiar but not the same, the thought that I cant have a beer again scares me, but I can go  6 months without a beer no problem.

The thought of giving up wine scares me..

the thought of giving up DDF makes me smile jk

btw i'd argue that we get addicted to people / relationship's..

[aygart]

i've seen smokers get married and their wife puts her foot down and they stop without any programs from having done a pack or 2 a day. I've also seen some have occasional smokes after and be successful in keeping it that way.  On the other hand there seem to be many more cases the other way. Therefore it is risky to test it out. From the sound of it the 12 step programs which emphasize total 100% abstinence may be at higher risk of relapse once someone gives in once in a moment of weakness. Calling a program a success when it is successful with only 2% of participants over the long term is a very hard case to make. To say that it is because they didn't participate once they had a moment of weakness years down the road reeks of no true scotsman.

[hvaces42]

Again, having a moment of weakness does not mean the program doesnt work. It means there was a temporary lapse in abstinence. Worst case is you reset abstinence date. Does that mean you arent recovering? Of course not. Does it mean you forgot everything you learned? No. I know addicts who relapsed once after 10 years, 15 years. They reset their abstinence date and moved on. So what No true scotsman argument are we having?

[aygart]

Again, having a moment of weakness does not mean the program doesnt work. It means there was a temporary lapse in abstinence. Worst case is you reset abstinence date. Does that mean you arent recovering? Of course not. Does it mean you forgot everything you learned? No. I know addicts who relapsed once after 10 years, 15 years. They reset their abstinence date and moved on. So what No true scotsman argument are we having?

If there are only 2% who it helped after 5 years and your answer is that the rest didn't keep to it , well of course they didn't keep to it-they are back to their addiction, that is no true scotsman logic. The only wa it is possible to be nsuccessful is if it wasn't kept to so when it is kept to it is successful 100% of the time.

[hvaces42]

If there are only 2% who it helped after 5 years and your answer is that the rest didn't keep to it , well of course they didn't keep to it-they are back to their addiction, that is no true scotsman logic. The only wa it is possible to be nsuccessful is if it wasn't kept to so when it is kept to it is successful 100% of the time.

I think you misunderstood the 2% number. 2% stay in the program. 98% leave. That doesnt mean the same as it helped 2%. It helps 100%, of those that stay. There is no way to know how many were helped.

[aygart]

I think you misunderstood the 2% number. 2% stay in the program. 98% leave. That doesnt mean the same as it helped 2%. It helps 100%, of those that stay. There is no way to know how many were helped.

Why would the person who wasn't helped stay?

[hvaces42]

Why would the person who wasn't helped stay?

My friend stayed for 5 years until he made 1. He has over 20 now. Another one made 1 year 7 times before he made 2. He now has over 35. So some people stay even though "it doesnt work".

[aygart]

My friend stayed for 5 years until he made 1. He has over 20 now. Another one made 1 year 7 times before he made 2. He now has over 35. So some people stay even though "it doesnt work".

What changed that made them stay?

[hvaces42]

What changed that made them stay?

They finally admitted that they were powerless over the addiction and life was unmanageable. They stopped acting out in their addiction and submitted to the principles of the 12 steps.

[aygart]

They finally admitted that they were powerless over the addiction and life was unmanageable. They stopped acting out in their addiction and submitted to the principles of the 12 steps.

But what changed that this time they did and the other times not

[CS1]

But what changed that this time they did and the other times not

it was all of the other times that they "changed" and gave-in/succumbed to the addiction. Finally after years of abstaining, they continued their daily state of abstention.

[aygart]

it was all of the other times that they "changed" and gave-in/succumbed to the addiction. Finally after years of abstaining, they continued their daily state of abstention.

But why was this time different

[hvaces42]

But what changed that this time they did and the other times not

They finally got it. The pain of being "in action" was finally great enough to push them into the hard work required to recover. Nothing in the program changed except for their willingness to admit, submit and do anything that was required to rid themselves of the scourge of addiction.

Call it sticktuitiveness. Call it submission. Call it what you want. They finally came around. It takes guts to admit you have a problem and that you dont have the answers to all the questions in your life.

These people are heros. One of them is a lawyer the other used to rob people in Times Square. They are reformed addicts who stopped their addiction and made a better life for themselves being sober and out of action.

[hvaces42]

Just a suggestion for any who question 12 step programs. There are open meetings all over the place. Go check it out. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you can learn at these meetings even if you dont feel you need a program or dont feel you have an addiction. Go to an Amudim awareness event. Read the literature. It wont hurt, I promise.

[thaber]

Just a suggestion for any who question 12 step programs. There are open meetings all over the place. Go check it out. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you can learn at these meetings even if you dont feel you need a program or dont feel you have an addiction. Go to an Amudim awareness event. Read the literature. It wont hurt, I promise.

+1.
And/Or read this book

[hvaces42]

+1.
And/Or read this book

Finally some backup...cant hold the fort alone