Author Topic: Opiod addictions  (Read 21800 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2017, 11:24:07 AM »
There are books that discuss and help you drink less, for some, thsts a better help than going to quit. But certainly, many or most addicts need to give up for life or relapse
But the Torah doesnt require abstinence. How can you suggest something against the Torah? (Sarcasm alert)
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2017, 11:36:55 AM »
The most important step is Step 1, admitting that the addict is powerless over their addiction and that life is unmanageable.
This is the problem I have with the 12 step program. This is not always the case. Don't you know at least one person who has kicked an addiction on their own? Someone who has gone to prison and came out clean? A life changing event (marriage, birth of a child, loss of a loved one just to name a few) that made them wake up?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2017, 11:43:57 AM »
This is the problem I have with the 12 step program. This is not always the case. Don't you know at least one person who has kicked an addiction on their own? Someone who has gone to prison and came out clean? A life changing event (marriage, birth of a child, loss of a loved one just to name a few) that made them wake up?
Honestly, not really. I know people that went to prison where smoking was not allowed and they tried every which way in prison to get cigarettes and when they got out went right back to pack a day. The problem today is that people dont get to life changing events fast enough to stop their addictions. They die all too young or are so wrapped up in their addiction at an early age that they cannot get to a place where they can get married or have children or experience any reason to quit. You would think that loss of colleagues or peers would give these kids a wake-up call. In reality it doesnt happen.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2017, 11:50:25 AM »
Honestly, not really.
I have and I guess that is why we look at it differently. I am not saying the 12 step program is bad or doesn't work because it does work for many. The mindset of the program is that no one can be cured and I refuse to accept that because I know it to be false.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2017, 12:01:00 PM »
I have and I guess that is why we look at it differently. I am not saying the 12 step program is bad or doesn't work because it does work for many. The mindset of the program is that no one can be cured and I refuse to accept that because I know it to be false.
In medical terms if one is free of a disease for 5 years they are considered cured. In program terms they say stick around for the 5 years and then decide if your cured. Usually if you're around for 5 years you realize that you can live with it and continue. Most dont stick around for 5 years. I can tell you that the retention rate for 1 year is probably 5% and goes down from there.

So it may not be false as much as you say. The program says that continued abstinence can arrest the disease. There is no cure AFAIK. But there may be exceptions. I know people who have stayed away from meetings and dont act out in their addiction. I know few who have tried small experimentation with their addictions and invariably they're right back to where they were...and often times worse...than when they started.

I dont know any drug addict who went to meetings and then started using again, or an alcoholic who has his drinking under control, or a gambler who only makes small bets and is doing better than they were when they came to meetings. If they exist it is because they really worked on their self-control. But most do not or lose it over time. 
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Offline A3

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2017, 12:01:38 PM »
Can we add some sort of poll.. maybe a couple of polls..
Ex. How many frum people we know that have a  serious problem and ages etc...

It's not only about the individual, there is family and enablers as well..
As much as we all want to and need to help al-anon is important as well..

Fyi, I didn't read the whole thread yet.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2017, 12:04:20 PM »
Can we add some sort of poll.. maybe a couple of polls..
Ex. How many frum people we know that have a  serious problem and ages etc...

It's not only about the individual, there is family and enablers as well..
As much as we all want to and need to help al-anon is important as well..

Fyi, I didn't read the whole thread yet.
Agreed. Al-anon is very important. Most family members will say they have no problem, so why do they need a meeting.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2017, 12:19:36 PM »
For the 12 step program to work do you need to be on it for the rest off your life?

For individuals that have been clean for 40 years and drink/gamble like any person without an addiction would you consider them cured?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2017, 12:25:59 PM »
For the 12 step program to work do you need to be on it for the rest off your life?

For individuals that have been clean for 40 years and drink/gamble like any person without an addiction would you consider them cured?
Im saying that they do exist, but not as a rule, as the exception. Like I've said, I've been around addicts for a long time. Ive rarely, if ever, seen anyone who goes back to their drug of choice "like any person without an addiction". Its not unicorns and fairies, but very rare. Scared straight, may help some individuals. But by and large if you go back you either were not an addict, or it wasnt bad enough the first time around.

Oh, and please describe how one is "clean" for 40 years if they're not clean. I think you mean someone who is not in trouble because of their addiction for 40 years. Theyre still addicts. See my example above of a dry drunk.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2017, 12:32:32 PM »
Scared straight, may help some individuals. But by and large if you go back you either were not an addict, or it wasnt bad enough the first time around.
How will you ever know if some individuals can be helped this way if the program never tries? It might be less than 1% or it might 5-10% but we will never know if we believe the possibility is 0%. I know for a fact it is not 0%. I will bet my life others know of individuals that have kicked addictions on their own. I am not promoting doing this on your own. I wish their was a program that acknowledged that some can be cured.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2017, 12:41:25 PM »
Oh, and please describe how one is "clean" for 40 years if they're not clean. I think you mean someone who is not in trouble because of their addiction for 40 years. Theyre still addicts. See my example above of a dry drunk.
This is where we disagree. Someone that can gamble/drink the same as someone who was never addicted in the first place in my view no longer has an addiction.
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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2017, 01:10:08 PM »
This is where we disagree. Someone that can gamble/drink the same as someone who was never addicted in the first place in my view no longer has an addiction.
The big question is how many addicts reach that point.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2017, 01:12:41 PM »
The big question is how many addicts reach that point.
Have no idea but we will never know if we never try.
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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #73 on: October 29, 2017, 01:15:52 PM »
Have no idea but we will never know if we never try.
Considering the number of recovered addicts who try and relapse that is probably not wise.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #74 on: October 29, 2017, 01:16:26 PM »
This is where we disagree. Someone that can gamble/drink the same as someone who was never addicted in the first place in my view no longer has an addiction.
I dont disagree. There may be those that can and are cured. I just havent met any of them. You may have met them. I can only speak from my experience.

When one realizes that there is no such thing as an AA bible or things that must be done then the program takes on a different bent. The program is all suggestions. Anyone that tells you this "must" be done is just a control freak looking to control others.
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Offline yitrap

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2017, 01:20:36 PM »
Considering the number of recovered addicts who try and relapse that is probably not wise.
Recovered addicts through 12 step program aren't proof, 12 step doesn't allow for social drinking/smoking.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2017, 01:22:33 PM »
Considering the number of recovered addicts who try and relapse that is probably not wise.
This is the problem. Lets just say there was such a program with a 10% success and 90% failure rate. Everyone would say the program is a failure. What then happens is we forget about the 10% that can be cured. We need some way to figure out what is difference between the 10 and 90%.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2017, 01:28:37 PM »
The big question is how many addicts reach that point.
I know at least 10 people with 40+ years of abstinence and recovery. Not one of them would ever want to go back to their addiction, even socially. Whatever benefit they could ever imagine getting from going back they have from not acting out, even socially.

This desire to go back, even socially, to something that has only caused one misery, is proof in and of itself of the power of the addiction. What can possibly be wrong if one stops themselves from a vice for the rest of their lives? Why the need to test yourself? That alone is a rush that one gets from proving everyone wrong by saying "look at what i can do safely". That behavior alone is destructive.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
This desire to go back, even socially, to something that has only caused one misery, is proof in and of itself of the power of the addiction. What can possibly be wrong if one stops themselves from a vice for the rest of their lives? Why the need to test yourself? That alone is a rush that one gets from proving everyone wrong by saying "look at what i can do safely". That behavior alone is destructive.
These are valid points.
Isn't staying true to the 12 step program a daily struggle? Would it be nice to not have that daily struggle?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Opiod addictions
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2017, 01:32:13 PM »
This is the problem. Lets just say there was such a program with a 10% success and 90% failure rate. Everyone would say the program is a failure. What then happens is we forget about the 10% that can be cured. We need some way to figure out what is difference between the 10 and 90%.
Real numbers...
2% or less recover. Of those, i have yet to meet one who can do what you describe. Almost to a man they relapse and come back in worse shape than the first time.
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