Opiod addictions

[hvaces42]

These are valid points.
Isn't staying true to the 12 step program a daily struggle? Would it be nice to not have that daily struggle?

It gets easier over time. Its not a struggle after a while, its a way of life. New friends, new routine, filling the void is usually the addicts biggest problem. Too much time on their hands to think about ways to get the escape provided by the addiction is the hardest part. Once you get into a program routine it gets much easier. The problem is that most dont stick around long enough for the miracle of recovery. Like most addicts I know, everyone wants a magic pill. Newsflash, there aint no magic pill. It takes time and work, sometimes hard work and pain to overcome an addiction. Most dont want to put in the time or effort required.

Wouldnt it be nice to be rich? Of course it would be, but no effort no reward.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Wouldnt it be nice to be rich? Of course it would be, but no effort no reward.

Not the same thing. Very easy to middle class. Can I be middle class in the program. Not a drunk but don't abstain? 

[ChaimMoskowitz]

What is the success rate for the 12 step programs? I am seeing horrendous success rates.

[hvaces42]

What is the success rate for the 12 step programs? I am seeing horrendous success rates.

I will say it until Im blue in the face. Its 100% success for anyone who is willing to face the reality of their addiction and stay with the program. People that leave are not failure of the program.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I will say it until Im blue in the face. Its 100% success for anyone who is willing to face the reality of their addiction and stay with the program. People that leave are not failure of the program.

I heard you say that and I understand what you are saying. That is not how the success rate of a program is determined. Of those that enter the program how many succeed? If have seen figures of less than 5-10%. Are these accurate?

[aygart]

I will say it until Im blue in the face. Its 100% success for anyone who is willing to face the reality of their addiction and stay with the program. People that leave are not failure of the program.

Part of the success of a program is getting participants to stay in it.

[hvaces42]

I heard you say that and I understand what you are saying. That is not how the success rate of a program is determined. Of those that enter the program how many succeed? If have seen figures of less than 5-10%. Are these accurate?

Define success.

[hvaces42]

I've said it before as well, 1 year retention rate is somewhere in that range. 5 year retention rate is below 2%.

[hvaces42]

Part of the success of a program is getting participants to stay in it.

So lets take another program, what is the success rate of Daf Yomi?
L' havdil...

 How many people who start after the siyum stay for a year, 5 years, the full 7 years? Is Daf Yomi a success? For those that stay it is. For those that leave, did Daf Yomi fail them? Of course not. You cannot measure a voluntary program by people who choose not to participate.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I've said it before as well, 1 year retention rate is somewhere in that range. 5 year retention rate is below 2%.

Ouch!

[hvaces42]

Ouch!

Yes, ouch, its sad to see 100 people walk into a room and only 2 stick around for the magic.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Yes, ouch, its sad to see 100 people walk into a room and only 2 stick around for the magic.

They need to figure out how to keep more in the program.

[hvaces42]

They need to figure out how to keep more in the program.

They need to do nothing of the sort. Every person who comes and stays is there for themselves. No one in the program can make anyone do anything. Addict do not take well to being told what to do. If someone comes and stays and is successful then the program is successful.

You're forgetting, you're dealing with very sick individuals. Getting them to commit to something for the rest of their lives is a scary proposition. Your alternative to stop and then try small social experimentation is not the answer. The risk of serious relapse is not worth the risk of even trying that.

Sometimes the pain of recovery is just not worth it to these people who dont stay. When the pain of the addiction is greater than the pain of recovery then, and only then, will they stay in program.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

They need to do nothing of the sort. Every person who comes and stays is there for themselves. No one in the program can make anyone do anything. Addict do not take well to being told what to do. If someone comes and stays and is successful then the program is successful.

If a program is only helping 2% of those enrolled you will be hard pressed to convince anyone it is a success. If your selling point is "do this for the rest of your life" no wonder the dropout rate is so high.

[hvaces42]

If a program is only helping 2% of those enrolled you will be hard pressed to convince anyone it is a success. If your selling point is "do this for the rest of your life" no wonder the dropout rate is so high.

1. There is no enrollment. Its purely voluntary. So no way of keeping anyone, or making anyone stay.
2. Selling point is "one day at a time". If you're smart enough to realize its for the rest of your life and that doesnt scare you away early on then you will succeed.
3. Show me a better alternative besides bandaid therapies and I'm all ears.

[Bukboy]

My brother was a terrible alcoholic and drug attic.
He was in rehab, did the 12 step program and went to meetings frum, he was clean - clean! for almost 3 full years, went to LAS for a little vacation (he wasn't a gambling addict) made a few bucks so of course made a little le'chiam, the end....

[hvaces42]

My brother was a terrible alcoholic and drug attic.
He was in rehab, did the 12 step program and went to meetings frum, he was clean - clean! for almost 3 full years, went to LAS for a little vacation (he wasn't a gamble addict) made a few bucks so of course made a little le'chiam, the end....

First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. Hashem should give you and your family the strength to deal with this terrible tragedy.

Next, I ask, why "of course".

Without judging him, he may not have been a gambling addict, but the casino is an open and free bar...not a place for a recovering alcoholic.

Finally, I say, many times we see addicts stop one addiction and trade it for another. Its like a balloon. You push it in in one place and it comes out elsewhere. 12 step programs are designed to stop addictive behavior by bringing about a progressive character change in the addict. Change in the way the void is filled. Change in the way one deals with crisis. Change in the need to escape reality and deal with real life issues.     

[Bukboy]

First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. Hashem should give you and your family the strength to deal with this terrible tragedy.

Next, I ask, why "of course".

Without judging him, he may not have been a gambling addict, but the casino is an open and free bar...not a place for a recovering alcoholic.

Finally, I say, many times we see addicts stop one addiction and trade it for another. Its like a balloon. You push it in in one place and it comes out elsewhere. 12 step programs are designed to stop addictive behavior by bringing about a progressive character change in the addict. Change in the way the void is filled. Change in the way one deals with crisis. Change in the need to escape reality and deal with real life issues.   

Umein!
He did not trade in another addiction but went back to drinking and drugs.
My point is that you can be very successful with rehab and the 12 step program, stay clean for a few years after being an alcoholic and drug addict for years and a cold bottle of beer can get you back to step 1! The addiction is just being buried deep in your body but you're not cured! 

[hvaces42]

Umein!
He did not trade in another addiction but went back to drinking and drugs.
My point is that you can be very successful with rehab and the 12 step program, stay clean for a few years after being an alcoholic and drug addict for years and a cold bottle of beer can get you back to step 1! The addiction is just being buried deep in your body but you're not cured!

Paging @ChaimMoskowitz

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Paging @ChaimMoskowitz

Have you heard anything I said?