Author Topic: Newbie want to go to Israel  (Read 3076 times)

Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 10:12:39 AM »
Just gonna assume it had everything to do with the way you asked it

That's because you are assuming that its allowed.  I myself am not familiar enough with the facts nor the halacha to have a strong opinion. I'm wondering why you feel so strongly that its allowed to question the way in which the question was asked.  I simply called as very respected rov, who is familiar with the intricacies of miles/points and selling, and simply asked as follows: "If I earned the miles totally legitimately would I be allowed to sell them", and he said no.  This is not the forum for a detailed halachic discussion, but the questions to be explored are many and you need a qualified person that is familiar with both the halachah and the practical.  ex: This rov told me that breach of a contractual agreement is assur lhalacha as well. Additionally, there is also an issue of livnei iver or misayayah liydei ovrey avairoh (depending on the specifics of the case) if you sell to a jew, and mateh akum if you sell to a non jew (as the improper use of miles leads to someone flying on a flight that he should not be on), dina d'malchusa, etc.  The fact that the airlines are known to try to find violators and penalize them shows that they take it seriously as well, so the arguments that everyone does it and they know about it and don't care, is invalid as well.  I'd love to hear more.  TY

Offline keemster26

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 10:38:28 AM »
That's because you are assuming that its allowed.  I myself am not familiar enough with the facts nor the halacha to have a strong opinion. I'm wondering why you feel so strongly that its allowed to question the way in which the question was asked.  I simply called as very respected rov, who is familiar with the intricacies of miles/points and selling, and simply asked as follows: "If I earned the miles totally legitimately would I be allowed to sell them", and he said no.  This is not the forum for a detailed halachic discussion, but the questions to be explored are many and you need a qualified person that is familiar with both the halachah and the practical.  ex: This rov told me that breach of a contractual agreement is assur lhalacha as well. Additionally, there is also an issue of livnei iver or misayayah liydei ovrey avairoh (depending on the specifics of the case) if you sell to a jew, and mateh akum if you sell to a non jew (as the improper use of miles leads to someone flying on a flight that he should not be on), dina d'malchusa, etc.  The fact that the airlines are known to try to find violators and penalize them shows that they take it seriously as well, so the arguments that everyone does it and they know about it and don't care, is invalid as well.  I'd love to hear more.  TY
So don't buy gift cards to meet your spend either. Breach in their contract.

Offline SrulyS

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2017, 10:48:37 AM »
Here is a comprehensive post Dan wrote about using airline points to fly to Israel.

I am not sure when it was last updated so there may be some minor differences.

However, as was pointed out above you would have a much easier time using Chase points if you have access to a Sapphire Reserve card to book at 1.5 cents per point.

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 12:36:57 PM »
If ur so concerned with following rules, why didn't you follow the forum rules and not make a new thread. This question has been asked in some variation dozens of times. There are multiple threads for it in the cc and the trip planning boars. You violated the rules as badly as if you sold points.
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Offline cozmohoot

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 01:32:41 PM »
If ur so concerned with following rules, why didn't you follow the forum rules and not make a new thread. This question has been asked in some variation dozens of times. There are multiple threads for it in the cc and the trip planning boars. You violated the rules as badly as if you sold points.

Offline farmbochur

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 01:36:24 PM »
If ur so concerned with following rules, why didn't you follow the forum rules and not make a new thread. This question has been asked in some variation dozens of times. There are multiple threads for it in the cc and the trip planning boars. You violated the rules as badly as if you sold points.
But do you enter a binding contract enforcing those rules when you join DDF?
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Offline henche

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 01:43:05 PM »
Can you use points to get to Israel? Seems like the airlines don't really let you.  And is it safe to fly through Jordan or Syria?

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2017, 02:06:20 PM »
Can you use points to get to Israel? Seems like the airlines don't really let you.  And is it safe to fly through Jordan or Syria?
What about Turkey?
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Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2017, 02:19:59 PM »
So don't buy gift cards to meet your spend either. Breach in their contract.

I haven't. 

Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2017, 02:21:43 PM »
Here is a comprehensive post Dan wrote about using airline points to fly to Israel.

I am not sure when it was last updated so there may be some minor differences.

However, as was pointed out above you would have a much easier time using Chase points if you have access to a Sapphire Reserve card to book at 1.5 cents per point.

TY.  I really appreciate your willingness to help.

Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2017, 02:22:36 PM »

Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2017, 02:26:44 PM »
To those who helped I thank you.  To those who seem to have taken it personally, my apologies.  It was not my intention to paint a target on my back, nor to tell anyone else how to run their religious life.  I was asked a question and responded, believing that the one asking the question wanted information.  I have no reason to believe that their rabbanim are more or less reliable that mine.  I will bow out now as I see that my request for advice has turned volatile.  Thank you all

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2017, 02:36:18 PM »
To those who helped I thank you.  To those who seem to have taken it personally, my apologies.  It was not my intention to paint a target on my back, nor to tell anyone else how to run their religious life.  I was asked a question and responded, believing that the one asking the question wanted information.  I have no reason to believe that their rabbanim are more or less reliable that mine.  I will bow out now as I see that my request for advice has turned volatile.  Thank you all
might want to work on your atzlus as well
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Offline chbochur

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2017, 01:35:05 PM »


That's because you are assuming that its allowed.  I myself am not familiar enough with the facts nor the halacha to have a strong opinion. I'm wondering why you feel so strongly that its allowed to question the way in which the question was asked.  I simply called as very respected rov, who is familiar with the intricacies of miles/points and selling, and simply asked as follows: "If I earned the miles totally legitimately would I be allowed to sell them", and he said no.  This is not the forum for a detailed halachic discussion, but the questions to be explored are many and you need a qualified person that is familiar with both the halachah and the practical.  ex: This rov told me that breach of a contractual agreement is assur lhalacha as well. Additionally, there is also an issue of livnei iver or misayayah liydei ovrey avairoh (depending on the specifics of the case) if you sell to a jew, and mateh akum if you sell to a non jew (as the improper use of miles leads to someone flying on a flight that he should not be on), dina d'malchusa, etc.  The fact that the airlines are known to try to find violators and penalize them shows that they take it seriously as well, so the arguments that everyone does it and they know about it and don't care, is invalid as well.  I'd love to hear more.  TY

I'm not sure if you know totally legitimately means but according to the t&c (chase)
 but they say they can shut down your account if they feel you are opening cards just to get the miles
 

If you read the terms in amex as well as chase no where (to the extent of my research) does it say you are not allowed to sell points, it does however say "you could be prohibited from earning or using points... If we suspect you have misused the program in any way for example by buying or selling points" (FYI a second example "by repeatedly opening or otherwise maintaining credit card accounts for the sole purpose of generating rewards") - chase t&c
Amex simply writes "points are not your property. You can't transfer points to any other person or program account" (doesn't look like there's any issue booking someone a BP flight and charging them for the service)
Seems to me that misused is not a breach of contract rather a risk you take that now they have the right to take away your points or even shut you down

According to the above non of the halachic issues of lifnei eivar or mateh akum etc apply (especially dima dimalchusa which never applies to begin with for the state law specially doesn't rule in favor of the credit card company (except in Utah I believe))



This all regarding amex and Chase and please correct me if I'm not understanding the terms correctly or I'm not qouting correctly

Fyi: Even if you want to say that it really means not to sell points then you should probably follow what it says not to open or maintain cards solely for the points

Offline Shem Tov

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Re: Newbie want to go to Israel
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2017, 10:01:26 AM »

I'm not sure if you know totally legitimately means but according to the t&c (chase)
 but they say they can shut down your account if they feel you are opening cards just to get the miles
 

If you read the terms in amex as well as chase no where (to the extent of my research) does it say you are not allowed to sell points, it does however say "you could be prohibited from earning or using points... If we suspect you have misused the program in any way for example by buying or selling points" (FYI a second example "by repeatedly opening or otherwise maintaining credit card accounts for the sole purpose of generating rewards") - chase t&c
Amex simply writes "points are not your property. You can't transfer points to any other person or program account" (doesn't look like there's any issue booking someone a BP flight and charging them for the service)
Seems to me that misused is not a breach of contract rather a risk you take that now they have the right to take away your points or even shut you down

According to the above non of the halachic issues of lifnei eivar or mateh akum etc apply (especially dima dimalchusa which never applies to begin with for the state law specially doesn't rule in favor of the credit card company (except in Utah I believe))



This all regarding amex and Chase and please correct me if I'm not understanding the terms correctly or I'm not qouting correctly

Fyi: Even if you want to say that it really means not to sell points then you should probably follow what it says not to open or maintain cards solely for the points

Im sorry that I did not respond.  After the post became contentious I bowed out and stopped checking replies.  I did appreciate the tone of your response, and did find the wording that you posted interesting.  I do not see how it would solve a problem of lifnei iver/mesayayoa (The person boarding the place is doing so in violation of the terms and the ticket was acquired fraudulently.  If the airline knew they certainly would not let the passenger on and would have the right to stop him/her, and you may be helping that) or mateh akum.  As previously posted though, I am not well versed in the contractual details, nor the pertinent halachos.  The rov that I spoke to did read thru a lot of it, but, each person should consult with their moreh derech.  TY though.  It was informative