Do we really need the US to recognize Jerusalem as the capital?

[Yehuda57]

Yes, he stood up to terrorists, but he also gave them more reasons to attack Jews and get away with it. And while the act was indeed defiant, it accomplishes nothing. No different from telling Taiwan that they are an independent nation - it doesn't change their reality one iota, but it ticks off the Chinese bigly.

That's the whole purpose of this terrorism blackmail. "Take down the metal detectors, or else we'll murder children." "Don't visit Temple Mount, or we'll start an Intifada." Besides the fact that most of these uprisings can be traced back to being orchestrated before the supposed tipping point, if you keep giving in out of fear, you perpetuate the threat of violence. Because it works.

Again, I don't know that Trump did this for this reason, but in effect he stood up to terror today, and rather than give them a reason to kill Jews, helped show that violence as blackmail is not guaranteed to work anymore. I don't think this is enough to end Palestinian terror, obviously, but its a huge step.

[Yehuda57]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/

This does not say that Jerusalem was the sticking point. It actually says he was willing to accept the deal in theory, but needed to see a map. It doesn't specify what parts of the map would or would not have been an issue. If Jerusalem was the issue, why would he have asked to see a map, and not just said no immediately?

[Yehuda57]

My original point was two fold. This hurts the peace process and will put Americans at risk.

So you concede the points. If the "other side" believes it, it is for one reason only: They believe in a One State Solution - Israel wiped off the map.

Which brings us to:

This hurts the peace process.

How can you have a peace process if they don't want Israel to exist? Where is the starting point for negotiation? As @aygart has been saying all along, this helps the process, because once you establish that Jerusalem is Israel's capital - in other words, Israel EXISTS, and will always exist, they can then START to negotiate.

will put Americans at risk.

Disagree strongly for many reasons, but I've been hogging this thread a bit, so I'll just say one: Fighting against Palestinian terrorism helps the fight against global terrorism. Americans will be saved in the long run if they continue this path of non capitulation to terrorist blackmail.

[Yammer]

This does not say that Jerusalem was the sticking point. It actually says he was willing to accept the deal in theory, but needed to see a map. It doesn't specify what parts of the map would or would not have been an issue. If Jerusalem was the issue, why would he have asked to see a map, and not just said no immediately?

I'm not arguing that it wasn't part of Jerusalem, I'm just saying that 'Jerusalem" was always the derailing of the process. Because of the high political stakes of giving up Jerusalem it could never be done.

It could change now that it can be blamed on Trump

[Yehuda57]

'Jerusalem" was always the derailing of the process.

Source?

[noturbizniss]

I'm not arguing that it wasn't part of Jerusalem, I'm just saying that 'Jerusalem" was always the derailing of the process. Because of the high political stakes of giving up Jerusalem it could never be done.

It could change now that it can be blamed on Trump

Are you kidding? Barak and Olmert both offered East jerusalem to the PA. Arafat and then Abas walked away from the table.
Pre 1967 Arabs controlled the ENTIRETY of jerusalem. I don't recall there not being any terrorism.
Blaming it on jerusalem is ridiculous. It's merely an excuse for arabs to kill more jews. THey won't be happy until Jews are completely out of israel, and anyone who insists they want peace is either indenial, living in a dream world or mentally retarded.
Just look at the 3 speechs today. Trump talked about how jerusalem is holy to jews, muslims and christians. BB did the same. Abas did not mention the jews at all.

[ludmila]

1) The PA will realize that they must give up on an issue that had plauged the negotiations fo the past 2 decades.

2) The PA technically isn't in a position to negotiate at all. The Ppl would revolt if they gave up on Jerusalem. It's become easier now that the blame is on the US.

3) The fact that the US is firmly behind Israel even when faced with such  overwhelming pressure, will strengthen them in the Region

4) Iran ( and others )got that message loud and clear. Trump is unpredictable, he won't back down and is willing to take significant risk.

5) The UN and EU understand that the current US administration will fight for Israel in every arena. ( Which will slow down the thought of any anti Israel motions )

6) sends the right message to Saudi Arabia aka moderate Muslim Nations that the US won't bow to terror. ( Although they opposed the move, the effect will benefit them )

There are cons as well as you articulated plus

1) it will definitely strengthen BDS movement

2) puts the US at odds again with it's closest allies.


Either way I lost my patience...so here ya go..

#6 The Saudi king, an American ally since the kingdom was established visited Putin recently, was a first in many years, and the ruler of Kuwait visited Putin just before, shows that the power shift in the middle east is happening, Russia is emerging as a more dominant power in the region.

[aygart]

Pre 1967 Arabs controlled the ENTIRETY of jerusalem.

This is factually untrue. They did not control west Jerusalem.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

So you concede the points. If the "other side" believes it, it is for one reason only: They believe in a One State Solution - Israel wiped off the map.

If I know you want something I am going to use that against you. That is how negotiations work. Trump wants a deal both sides can agree to but he just took something away from one side without them getting anything in return. This hurts the process. He also fueled the hate against the US. This puts Americans at risk. That is my take on it. It has nothing to do with how I feel what should be done.

[ludmila]

This is factually untrue. They did not control west Jerusalem.

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and Israel West Jerusalem, the city was unified after the 1967 war.

[helpyouamdme]

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and Israel West Jerusalem, the city was unified after the 1967 war.

You are right in fact there was never a polistine land before it was Turkey than England then it got split Between the Jews and the Palestine the whole thing that they are claiming that we capture their land is a lie 😡

[aygart]

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and Israel West Jerusalem, the city was unified after the 1967 war.

Isn't that what I wrote?

[Yammer]

Source?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/

Are you kidding? Barak and Olmert both offered East jerusalem to the PA. Arafat and then Abas walked away from the table.
Pre 1967 Arabs controlled the ENTIRETY of jerusalem. I don't recall there not being any terrorism.
Blaming it on jerusalem is ridiculous. It's merely an excuse for arabs to kill more jews. THey won't be happy until Jews are completely out of israel, and anyone who insists they want peace is either indenial, living in a dream world or mentally retarded.
Just look at the 3 speechs today. Trump talked about how jerusalem is holy to jews, muslims and christians. BB did the same. Abas did not mention the jews at all.

See the link above. And of course I'm not excusing terrorists.

The fact is that it's a sensitive topic of PA ( and Israeli politicians ) to discuss negotiations of Jerusalem.

The fact that Trump gave Soo much support can make it easier for the PA to relinquish parts blaming the US.

#6 The Saudi king, an American ally since the kingdom was established visited Putin recently, was a first in many years, and the ruler of Kuwait visited Putin just before, shows that the power shift in the middle east is happening, Russia is emerging as a more dominant power in the region.

See #5

Cons

3) The US isolating itself on an issue with Global ramifications. Never a good position to be

4) Our willingness to alone ( or their pride for being ignored ) will make it harder to get allies to move closer to our position on other issues ( Iran, NK ) ( or the opposite as many will claim that the world needs a strong US to lead )

5) #4 will make it easier for China, Russia etc to work against US interests.


There's more but I think this will suffice.

[Yammer]

This is factually untrue. They did not control west Jerusalem.

Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and Israel West Jerusalem, the city was unified after the 1967 war.

The UN never recognized their sovereignty on West Jerusalem either.

[a good yeshiva bachur]

the whole thing that they are claiming that we captured their land is a lie 😡

Really? I thought it was true??!!

[Yehuda57]

The UN never recognized their sovereignty on West Jerusalem either.

It's part of the 1949 armistice lines, over the green line, and has been on the Israeli side in every agreement. West Jerusalem is as much legally Israel as Tel Aviv.

[Yehuda57]

See the link above. And of course I'm not excusing terrorists.

The fact is that it's a sensitive topic of PA ( and Israeli politicians ) to discuss negotiations of Jerusalem.

The link said nothing of the sort. Again, provide a source.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

It's part of the 1949 armistice lines, over the green line, and has been on the Israeli side in every agreement. West Jerusalem is as much legally Israel as Tel Aviv.

What about East Jerusalem? Where has that been in the agreements.

[Yehuda57]

What about East Jerusalem? Where has that been in the agreements.

It's been offered to the Palestinians multiple times

[ChaimMoskowitz]

It's been offered to the Palestinians multiple times

Dont they believe it is theirs to begin with?