Author Topic: Lessons From Prison [Threads]  (Read 2735 times)

Online Yehuda57

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Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« on: December 08, 2017, 12:14:28 PM »
I think it is fair to say that we are all glued to the prison thread. Each of us read the details of @hvaces42's tale with varying emotions - from sympathy and pity to anger and horror, and perhaps even a little judgment.

But while the story and the surrounding discussion is fascinating, I was struck by one aspect which I wish to share. It would appear the reason for sharing the story was due to it being a cautionary tale. As if to say, “I was a regular guy, just like you, who got caught up with bad activities. Before you knew it, I was being treated like a sub-human in Rikers.”

It could happen to anyone. You don’t need to be such a rashah to end up in a degrading, dehumanizing and debilitating place.

But what about the reverse? You don’t have to be such a tzadik to end up in a place of uplifting, inspiring joy.
 
Yesterday was Yud Tes Kislev, the Chag Hageulah of the first Chabad Rebbe, the Alter Rebbe, and we began studying the Tanya anew. On the title page, he informs us that the purpose of the work is to explain to “beinonim” the verse “ki karov elecha hadavar meod.” We can do it, not just tzadikim - me and you!

For most of us prison is a distant concept. Reading such a story from someone within our community shocks us into realizing it is not so far fetched after all - ki karov eilecha hadavar meod. Hopefully we can gain even more inspiration from the positive side of the coin and realize that a life of a beinoni - serving Hashem in the fullest measure - is not far fetched either.

The path to true joy and fulfillment may be arucha uktzara, but it is within our reach. It could happen to you!

Good Shabbos and gut Yom Tov one and all.

P.S. I didn't want to hijack the other thread with my drivel, hence the separate thread.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2017, 12:19:52 PM »
Spot on. Thank you.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2017, 12:22:56 PM »
Very nice summary but the old saying it can happen to anyone is false.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hachover

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 12:47:07 PM »
It could happen to anyone. You don’t need to be such a rashah to end up in a degrading, dehumanizing and debilitating place.

You're right. The punishment in that prison is atrocious. I'm not even sure it could be justified even for a real rasha

Reading such a story from someone within our community shocks us into realizing it is not so far fetched after all - ki karov eilecha hadavar meod.

You're dead wrong. What a horrible thing to say - do you really live your life so close to the edge of honesty that you are always close to having a jail story?

The most shocking thing to me in that thread was the sheer number of people who could relate to the story - the "my uncle was in prison", "my neighbor ran away", "I worked with someone", etc. I am horrified that so many people have just one degree of separation. What is wrong with us? We don't live in a country where they toss you in jail for being an innocent yid - we're talking about people who actively did things that are well known to be illegal. Stealing is korov eilecha? Fraud is korov eilecha? That's not the values I was taught in yeshivas.

Certainly everyone makes mistakes, and unfortunate events can of course lead to nisyoinos in these areas that result in mistakes that are much worse than normal, but we should be so veit from making these types of mistakes that are illegal that instances of people going to jail should be few and far between. Is stealing an aveira like murder? Or do you see it as an aveira like loshon horah that only goodie goodies accept upon themselves?

Ossisa v'osakta b'emunah?

/rant. Bring on the hate
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 12:52:00 PM »
/rant. Bring on the hate
Getting the PC ready.  :)
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline shwarmabob

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 01:19:52 PM »
The most shocking thing to me in that thread was the sheer number of people who could relate to the story - the "my uncle was in prison", "my neighbor ran away", "I worked with someone", etc. I am horrified that so many people have just one degree of separation. What is wrong with us? We don't live in a country where they toss you in jail for being an innocent yid - we're talking about people who actively did things that are well known to be illegal.

21 USC §§333, 352 & 21 CFR §332.30(b) make it a federal crime to sell anti-flatulent drugs without noting flatulence is "referred to as gas"

10 U.S.C. §2674(c)(3) & 32 C.F.R. §234.7(c) make it a federal crime to willfully make an unreasonable noise at the Pentagon.

7 USC §1011(f) & 36 CFR §261.4(b) make it a crime to say something so annoying to someone that it makes them hit you in a national forest.

27 USC §§205, 207 & 27 CFR §4.64(a)(8 ) make it a federal crime to advertise wine in a manner that suggests it has intoxicating qualities.

18 U.S.C. §1865 & 36 C.F.R. §2.15(a)(4) make it a federal crime to let your pet make a noise that scares the wildlife in a national park.

your dog barks you go to jail

Offline aygart

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 01:41:36 PM »
21 USC §§333, 352 & 21 CFR §332.30(b) make it a federal crime to sell anti-flatulent drugs without noting flatulence is "referred to as gas"

10 U.S.C. §2674(c)(3) & 32 C.F.R. §234.7(c) make it a federal crime to willfully make an unreasonable noise at the Pentagon.

7 USC §1011(f) & 36 CFR §261.4(b) make it a crime to say something so annoying to someone that it makes them hit you in a national forest.

27 USC §§205, 207 & 27 CFR §4.64(a)(8 ) make it a federal crime to advertise wine in a manner that suggests it has intoxicating qualities.

18 U.S.C. §1865 & 36 C.F.R. §2.15(a)(4) make it a federal crime to let your pet make a noise that scares the wildlife in a national park.

your dog barks you go to jail
Do you have statistics of how many people were incarcerated for these? What penalty do they carry?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 01:48:52 PM »
For most of us prison is a distant concept. Reading such a story from someone within our community shocks us into realizing it is not so far fetched after all - ki karov eilecha hadavar meod. Hopefully we can gain even more inspiration from the positive side of the coin and realize that a life of a beinoni - serving Hashem in the fullest measure - is not far fetched either.
You realize that this pasuk is referring to teshuva and not aveiros? That of course does not change how the yetzer hora is constantly lying in wait.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 02:09:48 PM »
You realize that this pasuk is referring to teshuva and not aveiros? That of course does not change how the yetzer hora is constantly lying in wait.
My good non-jewish friend from Gamblers' Anonymous says: "While I am in the 12 step meetings, my disease is outside doing pushups." Chas V'Shalom to suggest that we are close to it. I had an underlying compulsive addiction which lead me to this. Once I got it under control through the 12 step meetings and working on my recovery I no longer have to worry about being close to doing the wrong thing.

To say that teshuva is "ki karov eilecha hadavar meod" is not to understand the hard work that is involved. Far be it from me to lecture on teshuva. We should all aspire one day to be baalei teshuva. To quote the Alter Rebbe regarding Tanya being a sefer for benonim and to accept that as him speaking to us is a bit far-fetched. I'm not THAT farbrent a chusid, yet. Sorry.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 02:13:59 PM »
My good non-jewish friend from Gamblers' Anonymous says: "While I am in the 12 step meetings, my disease is outside doing pushups." Chas V'Shalom to suggest that we are close to it. I had an underlying compulsive addiction which lead me to this. Once I got it under control through the 12 step meetings and working on my recovery I no longer have to worry about being close to doing the wrong thing.

To say that teshuva is "ki karov eilecha hadavar meod" is not to understand the hard work that is involved. Far be it from me to lecture on teshuva. We should all aspire one day to be baalei teshuva. To quote the Alter Rebbe regarding Tanya being a sefer for benonim and to accept that as him speaking to us is a bit far-fetched. I'm not THAT farbrent a chusid, yet. Sorry.
I am not the one who said it about teshuva. That was Moshe Rabbeinu.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 02:19:59 PM »
I am not the one who said it about teshuva. That was Moshe Rabbeinu.
The perek starts off with Teshuva but ends with doing mitzvos or am I just misremembering?
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Offline vanilla

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 02:45:52 PM »
The perek starts off with Teshuva but ends with doing mitzvos or am I just misremembering?
It's a disagreements among the rishonim, Ramban says it is referring to תשובה

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 03:04:49 PM »
You're right. The punishment in that prison is atrocious. I'm not even sure it could be justified even for a real rasha

You're dead wrong. What a horrible thing to say - do you really live your life so close to the edge of honesty that you are always close to having a jail story?

The most shocking thing to me in that thread was the sheer number of people who could relate to the story - the "my uncle was in prison", "my neighbor ran away", "I worked with someone", etc. I am horrified that so many people have just one degree of separation. What is wrong with us? We don't live in a country where they toss you in jail for being an innocent yid - we're talking about people who actively did things that are well known to be illegal. Stealing is korov eilecha? Fraud is korov eilecha? That's not the values I was taught in yeshivas.

Certainly everyone makes mistakes, and unfortunate events can of course lead to nisyoinos in these areas that result in mistakes that are much worse than normal, but we should be so veit from making these types of mistakes that are illegal that instances of people going to jail should be few and far between. Is stealing an aveira like murder? Or do you see it as an aveira like loshon horah that only goodie goodies accept upon themselves?

Ossisa v'osakta b'emunah?

/rant. Bring on the hate
I agree whole heartedly. That shock is the driving point behind this post.

The quoted paragraph is worded badly, partially by mistake, and partially for other considerations. I'll rewrite it after shabbos.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 03:08:10 PM »
You realize that this pasuk is referring to teshuva and not aveiros? That of course does not change how the yetzer hora is constantly lying in wait.
That's the whole point! The point of the story seemed to say, beware: korov eilecha hadavar meod. I'm saying we should be thinking the flip side is more korov.

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 11:25:32 PM »


I think it is fair to say that we are all glued to the prison thread. Each of us read the details of @hvaces42's tale with varying emotions - from sympathy and pity to anger and horror, and perhaps even a little judgment.

But while the story and the surrounding discussion is fascinating, I was struck by one aspect which I wish to share. It would appear the reason for sharing the story was due to it being a cautionary tale. As if to say, “I was a regular guy, just like you, who got caught up with bad activities. Before you knew it, I was being treated like a sub-human in Rikers.”

The point being made seems to be - It could happen to anyone. You don’t need to be such a rashah to end up in a degrading, dehumanizing and debilitating place.

But in actuality, it is the reverse that is true. You don’t have to be such a tzadik to end up in a place of uplifting, inspiring joy.
 
Yesterday was Yud Tes Kislev, the Chag Hageulah of the first Chabad Rebbe, the Alter Rebbe, and we began studying the Tanya anew. On the title page, he informs us that the purpose of the work is to explain to “beinonim” the verse “ki karov elecha hadavar meod.” We can do it, not just tzadikim - me and you!

For most of us, prison is a distant concept. While reading such a story from someone within our community is supposed to shock us into realizing it is not so far fetched after all - ki karov eilecha hadavar meod - in reality prison should still be a foreign idea, not at all within our grasp.

Personally, I found more inspiration from the positive side of the coin: the life of a beinoni - serving Hashem in the fullest measure - is not far fetched.

The path to true joy and fulfillment may be arucha uktzara, but it is within our reach. It could happen to you!

Good Shabbos and gut Yom Tov one and all.

P.S. I didn't want to hijack the other thread with my drivel, hence the separate thread.

FTFM

Offline srf60

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Re: Lessons From Prison [Threads]
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2017, 12:49:11 AM »
21 USC §§333, 352 & 21 CFR §332.30(b) make it a federal crime to sell anti-flatulent drugs without noting flatulence is "referred to as gas"

10 U.S.C. §2674(c)(3) & 32 C.F.R. §234.7(c) make it a federal crime to willfully make an unreasonable noise at the Pentagon.

7 USC §1011(f) & 36 CFR §261.4(b) make it a crime to say something so annoying to someone that it makes them hit you in a national forest.

27 USC §§205, 207 & 27 CFR §4.64(a)(8 ) make it a federal crime to advertise wine in a manner that suggests it has intoxicating qualities.

18 U.S.C. §1865 & 36 C.F.R. §2.15(a)(4) make it a federal crime to let your pet make a noise that scares the wildlife in a national park.

your dog barks you go to jail
Wow, you can make this stuff up
#Make our laws great again!