Jos. A Banks, Buy 1, Get 5 Free.

[elikay]

I'd ask them to credit me half the charge. That's what happened to me when I returned a suit with a BOGOF offer. It was two for $275, or receipt said $275 the other said $0, I had the guy adjust the $0 and give me $137.50 back.

(not the same as your case, but I think they'd do it).

Kol hakavod this post is a קידוה"ש as opposed to the OP with all due respect.

[dans fan]

+100, a known loopole with JosBank.

depends on location and sales rep

[Daniel]

The experience I have had is that when the two pieces are both a "normal" price (i.e. not $0 or $0.1) they will return whatever the receipt says. If not, they split the cost.

A piece of information I need to ask the shayla properly is if the stores are franchised or are all owned by Jos a Bank. If it's the latter, you may have to call the corporate offices and find out what their official policy is.

I had a similar shayla with "child fare" tickets on buses in Israel. The ticket said "Until 18" There was ambiguity over whether an 18 year old qualified. Every bus driver said something different. The posek I asked said it goes by what the corporate office says. They may be differences in this situation, but still a great shayla.

[AsherO]

The experience I have had is that when the two pieces are both a "normal" price (i.e. not $0 or $0.1) they will return whatever the receipt says. If not, they split the cost.

A piece of information I need to ask the shayla properly is if the stores are franchised or are all owned by Jos a Bank. If it's the latter, you may have to call the corporate offices and find out what their official policy is.

I had a similar shayla with "child fare" tickets on buses in Israel. The ticket said "Until 18" There was ambiguity over whether an 18 year old qualified. Every bus driver said something different. The posek I asked said it goes by what the corporate office says. They may be differences in this situation, but still a great shayla.

Publicly traded company, and (AFAIK) the stores are owned by the company (but I think they started outsourcing their manufacturing).

[Dan]

The experience I have had is that when the two pieces are both a "normal" price (i.e. not $0 or $0.1) they will return whatever the receipt says. If not, they split the cost.

A piece of information I need to ask the shayla properly is if the stores are franchised or are all owned by Jos a Bank. If it's the latter, you may have to call the corporate offices and find out what their official policy is.

I had a similar shayla with "child fare" tickets on buses in Israel. The ticket said "Until 18" There was ambiguity over whether an 18 year old qualified. Every bus driver said something different. The posek I asked said it goes by what the corporate office says. They may be differences in this situation, but still a great shayla.

The store and/or bus companies empower local managers to make their own decisions.  That's what they pay them for.
You don't need to run to a corp CS agent (and who says they know any more then a store manager knows?) every time you have a question about a store's policy.

[Daniel]

The store and/or bus companies empower local managers to make their own decisions.  That's what they pay them for.
You don't need to run to a corp CS agent (and who says they know any more then a store manager knows?) every time you have a question about a store's policy.

That's a good argument and makes sense, but I'm not sure that's what the halacha says. Even if an agent is hired to "make their own decisions" they are also hired on the condition they follow the company guidelines. If there is no official company policy on this issue, then that's a different story.

Your last point about the corporate rep not being anymore knowledgeable about the policy is also a good one. That's what makes this such a tough shayla.

I think the most important point here is that people cannot decide if something is muttar just because it makes sense. Unless you are a posek, just using your intuition is not sufficient (IMHO).

[AsherO]

I think the most important point here is that people cannot decide if something is muttar just because it makes sense. Unless you are a posek, just using your intuition is not sufficient (IMHO).

Really now? Do you call a posek 1000 times a day, every time you do anything? You trust your judgement most of the time, so where do you draw the line?

[Dan]

Really now? Do you call a posek 1000 times a day, every time you do anything? You trust your judgement most of the time, so where do you draw the line?

+1000.
Maybe I should have called HD corporate to see if they really wanted to sell me the washer at the price I paid?
Or maybe the CEO, after all the employees aren't really allowed to make those decisions?

[Daniel]

Really now? Do you call a posek 1000 times a day, every time you do anything? You trust your judgement most of the time, so where do you draw the line?

I don't disagree with you. I'm not saying don't use common sense. All I'm saying is that you can't brush off every "deal" as completely acceptable just because it seems muttar to you. I mean this applies to all areas of life. Knowing when to ask a shayla and when not to comes with experience in asking shaylas and with your own level of learning. I don't think it pays to argue over theoretical cases.

For the two cases at hand, I think it's wrong to assume the Jos A Bank return issue does not need the input of a posek. The home depot "deal" seems completely fine to me and from what I read I don't think it went against anything in their price matching policy. But, if for example, in the price matching policy it stated "Cannot be combined with any other offers, discounts etc..." I think that deserves a shayla (I would think it's still fine because as you said the manager approved it - but what I think isn't important- I'm not a posek). This is a common theme in many of the "deals"-- terms say one thing, employees/company "allow" something else.

I think these discussions in the forums are healthy as they raise issues with some of the "deals" that others may not be aware of and will cause them to evaluate whether or not the issue deserves a shayla to be asked.

[AsherO]

I don't disagree with you. I'm not saying don't use common sense. All I'm saying is that you can't brush off every "deal" as completely acceptable just because it seems muttar to you. I mean this applies to all areas of life. Knowing when to ask a shayla and when not to comes with experience in asking shaylas and with your own level of learning. I don't think it pays to argue over theoretical cases.

...

I think these discussions in the forums are healthy as they raise issues with some of the "deals" that others may not be aware of and will cause them to evaluate whether or not the issue deserves a shayla to be asked.

In your first paragraph you state that when to ask a shaila is personal, and depends on one's learning/experience etc. but then you say it should be discussed publicly and one person's experience/learning will somehow affect whether another person will need to ask a shayla. So which one is it?

Either way, I disagree on your whole premise on several grounds:
1. When I ask a shayla is my business, and since different poskim will give different tshuvos, I think it makes no sense to discuss the halachic/ethic aspect. As you'll agree, there's a lot of grey area with many of these deals, so someone should consider asking a posek if they're unsure, what more is there to discuss?
2. This is DansDeals.com, not DansEthics.com.
3. What makes your ethics standard any more just than the next person's, and vice versa? (i.e. anyone can find ethical qualms with any deal here, so why clutter the discussions with something subjective)?

[Daniel]

All Fair Points. Especially #2.

First, to answer the apparent stirah. Discussing openly whether or not a "deal" is questionable will lead people to evaluate on their own (based on their learning/experience/common sense) whether or not they need to ask a shayla. Questionable does not mean right/wrong/mutter/assur/ethical etc... It just means you should stop and think about all the implications of such a "deal"

Regarding point #2. My fear is that rov of the participants on this forum are yidden and that very often there are deals discussed which are highly questionable. There is an obligation to at least raise such issues here from time to time. If Dan does not want these types of discussion on the forum, he can add that to the forum rules.

#3- I'm not talking about "ethical standards" - that's a western term. I'm talking about Halacha. Yes, there are varying standards in halacha (e.g. Glatt, Mehadrin. Mehadrin min etc..) but those are all based on something with substance (Torah) and can be defined by speaking with a Torah authority.
Many deals on the forums are 100% muttar/yashar and it helps many of us save alot of money. This is a big mitzvah. It's those deals that don't feel yashar and may/may not be muttar that I'm speaking of.

[AsherO]

All Fair Points. Especially #2.

First, to answer the apparent stirah. Discussing openly whether or not a "deal" is questionable will lead people to evaluate on their own (based on their learning/experience/common sense) whether or not they need to ask a shayla. Questionable does not mean right/wrong/mutter/assur/ethical etc... It just means you should stop and think about all the implications of such a "deal"

Regarding point #2. My fear is that rov of the participants on this forum are yidden and that very often there are deals discussed which are highly questionable. There is an obligation to at least raise such issues here from time to time. If Dan does not want these types of discussion on the forum, he can add that to the forum rules.

#3- I'm not talking about "ethical standards" - that's a western term. I'm talking about Halacha. Yes, there are varying standards in halacha (e.g. Glatt, Mehadrin. Mehadrin min etc..) but those are all based on something with substance (Torah) and can be defined by speaking with a Torah authority.
Many deals on the forums are 100% muttar/yashar and it helps many of us save alot of money. This is a big mitzvah. It's those deals that don't feel yashar and may/may not be muttar that I'm speaking of.

Too many words, not enough argument (as in logic, not as in conflict).

1. What is there to discuss, everything is theoretically questionable, and if someone doesn't notice the question then they probably consider it a non-issue even after you mention it.

2. I bolded DansDeals, not DansDeals. The nature of the site is such that deals are discussed here, not ethics. I don't know where you find this obligation you mention to raise these issues once in a while. While I agree with you that some deals are more questionable than others, you're still not defining where you'd draw the line (I don't see how 'from time to time' draws a line). This has nothing to do with forum rules and everything to do with your objectives and whether their purpose is served.

3. Halacha is clearly subjective in that it considers the person asking the question and their particular situation. The way I see it the halachic framework is designed (by the designer of this universe) to provide a framework (with inherent grey areas) within which the Rabbis determine halacha.

Once again, your last sentence is subjective, and doesn't tell me where you draw the line.

[Daniel]

1. Many people will think twice if they see someone post a halachic objection to a deal

2. אינו אומר איש באחיו אלא איש בעוון אחיו,מלמד שכל ישראל ערבים זה בזה

 לפני עיוור לא תיתן מכשול
etc...

3. Halacha adapting to a particular situation might apply to Family Planning, Kashrus (can I eat by my relatives etc...), but I don't see how it would be adapted to "Can I churn credit cards?"

[AsherO]

1. Many people will think twice if they see someone post a halachic objection to a deal

2. אינו אומר איש באחיו אלא איש בעוון אחיו,מלמד שכל ישראל ערבים זה בזה

 לפני עיוור לא תיתן מכשול
etc...

3. Halacha adapting to a particular situation might apply to Family Planning, Kashrus (can I eat by my relatives etc...), but I don't see how it would be adapted to "Can I churn credit cards?"

We're going in circles, so this is my last response on the matter. I think our hashkafic differences result in us not seeing eye-to-eye.

1. You missed a key-word, theoretically halachic objection.
2. See point 1. (if there's no מכשול there's no problem)
3.  There are grey areas in all four sections of the Shulchan Aruch. See the recent post regarding maaser on mileage bonuses, 'nuff said.

[Daniel]

We're going in circles, so this is my last response on the matter. I think our hashkafic differences result in us not seeing eye-to-eye.

Agree 100% . I enjoyed discussing this with you. Have a great shabbos!

[AsherO]

Have a great shabbos!

Ditto.

[MES]

The previous back and forth was a little disheartening. Everyone who has argued with Daniel has been able to find something in what he said to take the liberty to throw it away. Come on guys, are you going to be that closed to this? This was not meant to be an interesting debate back and forth. And the forest has been lost to the trees. What Daniel is trying to bring up is that there ARE shaylos here. BIG ones. As yidden we have an obligation to make sure people know that, even though "there may be someone out there who says it's permitted" and "halacha is subjective". So if I see someone eating a food with pig gelatin, you would say I should keep my mouth shut and let him go ahead and eat it, because there was a very prminent posek who permitted it? That may be the case if the person in question is not Orthodox, but the assumption here is that people care about their yiddeshkeit. Maybe that was the original mistake. YES YES YES, if a questionable situation arises 1000 times in a day, you better get your rav on speed dial, and there are people who work for organizations like NCSY that I know, that DO have their rav on speed dial. But the point is moot, most of the questions on this site can be answered with less than 20 questions easy. Maybe that's also too much for you guys. I hope none of your are shochtim.
I'm not saying shut down the site, but a simple AYLOR (ask your local orthodox Rabbi) next to a questionable post would seem fair. Just as much as I wouldn't invite someone into a restaurant with a questionable hechsher without letting them know, even if my rav says it's ok, so too... You get the point.
The opposition to this concept is quite alarming. Are free flights and hotel stays, really worth the potential loss accrued to ones neshama?
If your answer is Yes, then don't debate those who feel it isn't, and let the site which everyone knows is run by a frum person, be a little bit more representative of the group he associates with.

[gozalim]

in addition to whether or not it's important to 'warn' fellow ddf'rs a if you find a specific deal questionable, there is also some use to posts that help clarify some of the svaros/facts regarding the halacha. example:

A piece of information I need to ask the shayla properly is if the stores are franchised or are all owned by Jos a Bank. If it's the latter, you may have to call the corporate offices and find out what their official policy is.

Publicly traded company, and (AFAIK) the stores are owned by the company (but I think they started outsourcing their manufacturing).

so while the extensive arguments back and forth about whether or not to warn are kind of annoying, any contribution of substance should be helpful for other members wishing to come to their own LOR properly prepared

[AsherO]

The previous back and forth was a little disheartening. Everyone who has argued with Daniel has been able to find something in what he said to take the liberty to throw it away. Come on guys, are you going to be that closed to this? This was not meant to be an interesting debate back and forth. And the forest has been lost to the trees. What Daniel is trying to bring up is that there ARE shaylos here. BIG ones. As yidden we have an obligation to make sure people know that, even though "there may be someone out there who says it's permitted" and "halacha is subjective". So if I see someone eating a food with pig gelatin, you would say I should keep my mouth shut and let him go ahead and eat it, because there was a very prminent posek who permitted it? That may be the case if the person in question is not Orthodox, but the assumption here is that people care about their yiddeshkeit. Maybe that was the original mistake. YES YES YES, if a questionable situation arises 1000 times in a day, you better get your rav on speed dial, and there are people who work for organizations like NCSY that I know, that DO have their rav on speed dial. But the point is moot, most of the questions on this site can be answered with less than 20 questions easy. Maybe that's also too much for you guys. I hope none of your are shochtim.
I'm not saying shut down the site, but a simple AYLOR (ask your local orthodox Rabbi) next to a questionable post would seem fair. Just as much as I wouldn't invite someone into a restaurant with a questionable hechsher without letting them know, even if my rav says it's ok, so too... You get the point.
The opposition to this concept is quite alarming. Are free flights and hotel stays, really worth the potential loss accrued to ones neshama?
If your answer is Yes, then don't debate those who feel it isn't, and let the site which everyone knows is run by a frum person, be a little bit more representative of the group he associates with.

Your post is full of assumptions and generalizations. I'd consider replying to them one-by-one if they were numbered, but with your paragraph structure (lack thereof actually)...

[AsherO]

in addition to whether or not it's important to 'warn' fellow ddf'rs a if you find a specific deal questionable, there is also some use to posts that help clarify some of the svaros/facts regarding the halacha. example:so while the extensive arguments back and forth about whether or not to warn are kind of annoying, any contribution of substance should be helpful for other members wishing to come to their own LOR properly prepared

According to Reuters, nearly all their 500+ stores are corporate-owned.