Will your federal taxes be going up or down next year?

[Sport]

But CM is.

What  cm and I have in common in this debate is in defining who is middle class and who deserves/needs the tax break the most.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

What  cm and I have in common in this debate is in defining who is middle class and who deserves/needs the tax break the most.

+1000

Would it be fair to say you would like to see the middle class get a bigger cut but as it stands now you still think it is a good bill?

[aygart]

+1000

Would it be fair to say you would like to see the middle class get a bigger cut but as it stands now you still think it is a good bill?

Yes. I think that had the dems been willing to participate in the process that could have happened.

Questions:
Based on what you had heard in the campaign were you expecting the Rs to make the tax code more progressive, less, or to stay the same?
Were you expecting the bill to be progressively engineered or not?

[Sport]

+1000

Would it be fair to say you would like to see the middle class get a bigger cut but as it stands now you still think it is a good bill?

Yes, and I also would have liked to seen some balance that would help families in higher taxed states even more not less. But realistically I didnt and dont expect that to happen.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Yes. I think that had the dems been willing to participate in the process that could have happened.

Questions:
Based on what you had heard in the campaign were you expecting the Rs to make the tax code more progressive, less, or to stay the same?
Were you expecting the bill to be progressively engineered or not?

I guess more as I expected the top rate to stay the same.

Now your turn. 
Do you remember him ever saying he was going to cut the top personal rate?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Yes, and I also would have liked to seen some balance that would help families in higher taxed states even more not less. But realistically I didnt and dont expect that to happen.

Fair enough.
It is nice to see with some members we can still disagree and have a honest discussion. 

[Sport]

Fair enough.
It is nice to see with some members we can still disagree and have a honest discussion. 

As long as you dont mix sports and politics we can be good once in a while.

[aygart]

I guess more as I expected the top rate to stay the same.

Now your turn. 
Do you remember him ever saying he was going to cut the top personal rate?

I do not remember him saying anything specific about which rates would be cut so that would be a no.

I think that anyone who expected the Rs to make the tax code more progressive had ridiculous expectations.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

I think that anyone who expected the Rs to make the tax code more progressive had ridiculous expectations.

I remember him talking about only having a few rates instead of the 7 (I think that is how many we have). So my hope was the middle class would mostly fall in the lowest rate. And I thought for sure he really was going after the hedge fund loophole.

[ExGingi]

I remember him talking about only having a few rates instead of the 7 (I think that is how many we have). So my hope was the middle class would mostly fall in the lowest rate. And I thought for sure he really was going after the hedge fund loophole.

With some bipartisan support, there might have been an ability to deliver better on any campaign "promises", but once in office, one has to deal with the reality of politics and senate rules, and put a lot of pragmatism into it.

[Toasted]

Not sure if this has been discussed. Please CMIIW.

You can prepay the q1 and q2 of 2018's taxes in 2017 and they won't be subject to the SALT cap. Can take some time though to break even on a cash flow basis as you'd still be making escrow payments.

Some discussion in the news to allow folks to prepay q3 and q4 as well.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/sweeney_state_should_help_nj_residents_prepay_2018.html

[aygart]

I remember him talking about only having a few rates instead of the 7 (I think that is how many we have). So my hope was the middle class would mostly fall in the lowest rate. And I thought for sure he really was going after the hedge fund loophole.

With some bipartisan support, there might have been an ability to deliver better on any campaign "promises", but once in office, one has to deal with the reality of politics and senate rules, and put a lot of pragmatism into it.

Exactly. He is not the one who wrote the bill and cannot be beholden to have included every aspect of his platform in there. There was nobody to talk to on the Dem side. The realit was that they needed every R senator and would not have been able to do so with the way you would have like the plan to be. A progressive bill with only R votes cannot happen. They also need to remain under the limit for reconciliation. This reality meant that they would prioritize certain aspect over others. @ChaimMoskowitz has uncharacteristically become somewhat incoherent in his criticism of this bill vacillating between jealousy, baseless assumptions, and complaints that a bill didn't keep exactly to the way the campaign promises sounded. Those seem to come more from his distaste for the president (which I share) than from the reality of the policies.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

@ChaimMoskowitz has uncharacteristically become somewhat incoherent in his criticism of this bill vacillating between jealousy, baseless assumptions, and complaints that a bill didn't keep exactly to the way the campaign promises sounded. Those seem to come more from his distaste for the president (which I share) than from the reality of the policies.

You can try and spin it anyway you want. You have shown over and over you don't want to have an honest discussion. My main point has never change. For the hundredth time this benefits the rich/corporations more. You keep bringing in all this other crap because you can't dispute my main point. Not only you cant dispute it you even agree with it.

[ExGingi]

You can try and spin it anyway you want. You have shown over and over you don't want to have an honest discussion. My main point has never change. For the hundredth time this benefits the rich/corporations more. You keep bringing in all this other crap because you can't dispute my main point. Not only you cant dispute it you even agree with it.

Why wouldn't every single American be happy that this tax bill gives a huge break to corporations (and other businesses)?

Think about almost every place you spend your money. Do you really think the corporations just pay the taxes out of their own excess? When they have higher expenses (including tax expenses) it is passed on to the consumers/end users. Oh, and by the way, those tax dollars aren't usually employed very efficiently to benefit the populace.

[avromie7]

You can try and spin it anyway you want. You have shown over and over you don't want to have an honest discussion. My main point has never change. For the hundredth time this benefits the rich/corporations more. You keep bringing in all this other crap because you can't dispute my main point. Not only you cant dispute it you even agree with it.

@aygart has been having a very honest discussion here, you're the one bringing in all the useless crap.

[avromie7]

Why wouldn't every single American be happy that this tax bill gives a huge break to corporations (and other businesses)?

Think about almost every place you spend your money. Do you really think the corporations just pay the taxes out of their own excess? When they have higher expenses (including tax expenses) it is passed on to the consumers/end users. Oh, and by the way, those tax dollars aren't usually employed very efficiently to benefit the populace.

CM has an issue because someone is getting more than him.

[ExGingi]

CM has an issue because someone is getting more than him.

That has been pretty obvious for a while.

What I tried to point out is that HE is one of those benefiting from the business tax breaks.

What was new to me recently on this thread, were some tones that reminded me of the famous mantra "from each according to their abilities, and to each according to their needs". Now where does that come from? Can someone remind me?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

That has been pretty obvious for a while.

You really believe that? Did you see my original post?

[aygart]

You can try and spin it anyway you want. You have shown over and over you don't want to have an honest discussion. My main point has never change. For the hundredth time this benefits the rich/corporations more. You keep bringing in all this other crap because you can't dispute my main point. Not only you cant dispute it you even agree with it.

As I have said numerous times, the only way for it to not have benefited those who pay more taxes more than those who pay less was to make the tax system more progressive than it is now and shift an even higher percentage of it to the rich. That is simply taking from the rich to give to the politicians with a small slice going to the poor. I though more of you than to have expected such a thing from the Rs.

[ExGingi]

You really believe that? Did you see my original post?

I have to perfectly honest, that while I can probably quote quite a few verses by heart with cantillation, being able to remember (or for that matter read) every single post of yours (especially on threads where you are highly active, and especially in the political threads) is beyond my abilities. I don't come close to the abilities of my dear friend @aygart.