Women in Jewish magazines

[aygart]

Your argument just underscores the issue that she and others take with this policy.  Yes, the magazines are free to do as they want, but why is there such an impassioned protest against something that has little to no basis in Judaism. And if @aygart is right that it's just easier to have a zero tolerance policy than figuring  out where to draw the line, why would anybody be offended if the magazines tried being more subtle, and nuanced with a clear policy of which images are acceptable?

The problem is that

Much of tznius is subjective. Anyone who thinks it is a bunch of lines missed the boat.

[aygart]

Cop out response.
Somehow DD has managed that balance for 13 years.

Never had an advertiser kvetch about our subjective standards and having to redo an ad or landing page, even if we don't have well defined written rules.

In the end if the day this is about what they feel will sell subscriptions.

How often have you needed to change the pictures on an ad for women's clothing or shaitels?

It also has to do with your willingness to have a backbone.

[Dan]

How often have you needed to change the pictures on an ad for women's clothing or shaitels?

It also has to do with your willingness to have a backbone.

Happens fairly often.
We've also required landing pages to be changed and/or have a disclaimer.

Saying it's impossible to find a happy medium is a copout, plain and simple.

[aygart]

Happens fairly often.
We've also required landing pages to be changed and/or have a disclaimer.

Saying it's impossible to find a happy medium is a copout, plain and simple.

I didn't say that it is impossible rather that it is the easy way out.

You also need to understand that there is a very big difference between a website and a magazine brought into the house.

[Sport]

The problem is that

Look at what I quoted and read what I wrote again, My point was not disagreeing with such a policy, but if that was the reasoning why would it engender such an outcry if they broke their policy.

[Dan]

I think the lack of pictures of even young girls in clothing ads epitomizes that there is something strange here.

[aygart]

Look at what I quoted and read what I wrote again, My point was not disagreeing with such a policy, but if that was the reasoning why would it engender such an outcry if they broke their policy.

I don't think it would engender such an outcry, but there would definitely be some who would stop buying it. Not having little girls is definitely on the extreme side. but keep in mind to an extent all modeling is untznius since

Ads are by definition trying to attract the attention of the reader as are the graphics on an article.

[zale]

I think the lack of pictures of even young girls in clothing ads epitomizes that there is something strange here.

I think they would respond by saying that it’s not good chinuch to get young girls involved in modeling. I would just counter that by saying that they hire non-Jewish girls to model. In fact, they don’t have to be involved in the photography at all. There are companies that will take your clothing line, find the models and do the photography for you. (Some heimishe companies do this.)

In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.

[Sport]

In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.

[aygart]

I think they would respond by saying that it’s not good chinuch to get young girls involved in modeling. I would just counter that by saying that they hire non-Jewish girls to model. In fact, they don’t have to be involved in the photography at all. There are companies that will take your clothing line, find the models and do the photography for you. (Some heimishe companies do this.)

In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.

Agree with both points. The Lakewood publications do have girls in ads. I am pretty sure they are not Jewish models. I am not even sure it is the actual clothing in the store being modeled and that they are not generic photos.

[aygart]

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.

That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.

[Dan]

That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.

Except that's the thinking that eventually leads to burkas.

[Sport]

That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.

Fair enough, as long as you concede its not reasonable.

[aygart]

Fair enough, as long as you concede its not reasonable.

As a response the way @zale wrote? Correct, it is not reasonable. The analogy to alcohol is also not accurate. In that case you are dealing with someone who has an issue. That would be more similar to someone who has a hard time controlling themselves around women.

[username]

Need to bus in the voters (usernames).

They were all just in ORD last week!

-1

/jk- but true.

[zale]

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.

There is a distinction between making what’s mutar assur, and building a “fence”.

In this case, privately owned publications have a right to set guidelines as they see fit. They can deny an advertisement if they don’t like the way your nose looks.

Society is being very smug and disingenuous about the way women are being projected. They are hypersexualizing women day in and day out and telling you that if you don’t like it then you are just plain sexist, because you are trying to “suppress” women’s bodies.

It’s NOT normal for a man to immediately have non-tznius thoughts when looking at a woman’s face. However, when women are portrayed to men from a very young age as objects, this is where their mind will race to. Fight me all you want on this, but you KNOW it’s true.

Personally, I think that they SHOULD publish women in their publications in SPITE of society’s downfall. But I don’t blame them for taking a stance.

[Yammer]

And those phone calls are the product of an intolerant misogynist and perverted form of Judaism.

You may consider is that way, but they firmly believe it.

Are the ones who 'yell' the loudest always right?

Nope. But those that are the post passionate about it will stop buying it and will cause financial harm to the publications while most here  suffice  to have this thread to vent ( no pun intended )

Your argument just underscores the issue that she and others take with this policy.  Yes, the magazines are free to do as they want, but why is there such an impassioned protest against something that has little to no basis in Judaism. And if @aygart is right that it's just easier to have a zero tolerance policy than figuring  out where to draw the line, why would anybody be offended if the magazines tried being more subtle, and nuanced with a clear policy of which images are acceptable?

I think that most rabbbis in the large tri state Orthodox communities ( BP, Flatbush, Monsey, Lakewood etc. ( Oh I forgot Williamsburg)) agree with this policy.( I'm talking about pictures of women not small girls )

[zale]

Except that's the thinking that eventually leads to burkas.

I agree with you to the extent of the new tznius laws and decrees coming out every day in certain communities. That is insanity and needs to stop.

I find publications in particular to be a little different. There aren’t any real halachic guidelines on that, so while I disagree with them, I won’t hold it against them if they err on the side of caution.

[Dan]

All part of the same problem.

When you're too afraid to draw the line at something like kids, things get out of control.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Is there such a thing as women swimwear? If so how do they advertise?