Poll

Is your wife allowed to drive? (Females: Are you allowed to drive?)

Yes
130 (75.1%)
No
43 (24.9%)

Total Members Voted: 173

Author Topic: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?  (Read 124934 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #640 on: May 10, 2023, 11:39:59 PM »
They didn't add enough sidewalks, and it's not a priority at all for the township. Seems like you're not arguing about that.

I don't follow the meetings closely anymore, but there was an apartment building approved on Ocean ave a couple years ago where they allowed no sidewalk on one side. That was particularly egregious to me. And 6 houses recently built near me bordering route 9, they destroyed the sidewalk on route 9 and made it unusable but never fixed it. Is that the state's fault?

I definitely know that they installed quite a bit of sidewalk in my area. My understanding is that they average about 2-3 miles a year. I don't know enough about the logistics of doing more to know what it would involve or if they could/should be doing more. Do you? If yes then please elaborate.

I never followed the meetings, but I cannot think of a development completed within the last 15-20 years without a sidewalk. Can you?

I don't know enough about the damaged sidewalk you refer to or whose jurisdiction enforcement over its damage falls into to comment on that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #641 on: May 11, 2023, 12:10:39 AM »
I definitely know that they installed quite a bit of sidewalk in my area. My understanding is that they average about 2-3 miles a year. I don't know enough about the logistics of doing more to know what it would involve or if they could/should be doing more. Do you? If yes then please elaborate.

I never followed the meetings, but I cannot think of a development completed within the last 15-20 years without a sidewalk. Can you?

By new development I didn't mean a Lakewood style housing development. I meant all new buildings/houses/etc that typically require sidewalks.
But regardless, he's the example I'm referring to:

Quote
"Originally, the applicant requested a waiver from providing sidewalks on the Route 88 frontage, however, the applicant withdrew that request. They will provide sidewalk along Route 88. There currently is no sidewalk or street trees along the 2nd Street frontage. The board granted a waiver from providing sidewalk and street trees along that frontage."

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=59628.msg2402726#msg2402726:~:text=%22Originally%2C%20the%20applicant,along%20that%20frontage.%22

And here's another case: https://www.faanews.com/2022/08/why-did-new-planning-board-chairman-not.html

Quote
I don't know enough about the damaged sidewalk you refer to or whose jurisdiction enforcement over its damage falls into to comment on that.

Usually new construction means new sidewalk is required. In this case - not only did they not put new sidewalk, they destroyed the old sidewalk. If it's a matter of forcing the developer to pay, the township should have no problem making that happen, no matter who's jurisdiction it falls under.
Visibly Jewish

Offline aygart

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #642 on: May 11, 2023, 12:27:18 AM »
By new development I didn't mean a Lakewood style housing development. I meant all new buildings/houses/etc that typically require sidewalks.
But regardless, he's the example I'm referring to:

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=59628.msg2402726#msg2402726:~:text=%22Originally%2C%20the%20applicant,along%20that%20frontage.%22

And here's another case: https://www.faanews.com/2022/08/why-did-new-planning-board-chairman-not.html

Usually new construction means new sidewalk is required. In this case - not only did they not put new sidewalk, they destroyed the old sidewalk. If it's a matter of forcing the developer to pay, the township should have no problem making that happen, no matter who's jurisdiction it falls under.
Unless I am mistaken about where this is, there is no missing sidewalk where that exits. The driveway takes the entire width.

The industrial park is a much different conversation. I agree that there should be sidewalks, but it is not anything similar to residential areas.


You are making assumptions regarding sidewalks on Rt 9.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #643 on: May 11, 2023, 12:30:08 AM »
Takes what, one day on GoFundMe to raise this for a family in need?

I'd think that now while the tragedy is fresh they can easily raise the funds for a pedestrian bridge if there is really a need for it. מציל נפש אחת מישראל should score at the top of important causes.

Offline chff

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #644 on: May 11, 2023, 12:35:57 AM »
They didn't add enough sidewalks, and it's not a priority at all for the township. Seems like you're not arguing about that.

I don't follow the meetings closely anymore, but there was an apartment building approved on Ocean ave a couple years ago where they allowed no sidewalk on one side. That was particularly egregious to me. And 6 houses recently built near me bordering route 9, they destroyed the sidewalk on route 9 and made it unusable but never fixed it. Is that the state's fault?
Actually doing sidewalks on the 9 now....

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #645 on: May 11, 2023, 08:14:04 AM »
I don't have time or brainpower to write a comprehensive post explaining Lakewood, but I'll write a few important points:

- @S209 was 100 percent correct in stating that the committeemen are doing the job with good intentions, and they really want to help people. However, some of them see it as their obligation to help residents get approval for plans or ideas that are really detrimental to others in the long term. If a yeshiva, school, developer, or resident is building a project and it will cost them millions of dollars more to do it the mandated way (with full sidewalks, full setbacks, the limited number of units per acre, mandated traffic signals, etc.), some committee members see it as their onus to help alleviate the costs and get approval for variances. This has saved mosdos, developers, and individuals (both in the frum and non-Jewish communities) tons of money and has cut out tons of senseless denies, but after doing it for so many years, it leaves a township with tons of traffic, no sidewalks, no setbacks (the state can't widen route 9 now because most of the businesses along the road got variances to build close to the road), and all the other issues that plague Lakewood.

- There is one committee member who is respected for standing up against rampant and detrimental building. I think you can get a great picture of what his understanding is (in contrast to the point before) by reading the beginning of this interview.

- At this point, after decades of lax approvals, you won't fix all problems with a pedestrian walkway or bridge. Making Lakewood "pedestrian safe" was something that was supposed to have been paid for by developers and mosdos who come for approval before township boards. Many of those requirements were taken out in order to make the plans more affordable (which was done in good faith - how can a yeshiva/school/resident afford an extra $5 million to add proper sidewalks, setbacks, parking, signals, etc?), and to retroactively fix that in a 25 square mile town will be impossible and unaffordable.

- Why doesn't someone run against the establishment? The short answer is that anyone who is willing to run in Lakewood is generally not someone people would vote for. Remember, this is Lakewood. Being a politician is not seen as a respectable job, unless you are not a politician but an emissary of the rabbonim (which is how the VAAD portrays it). Anyone who runs a rogue campaign will generally be painted as an anti-Yeshiva person, and will likely lose anyways. And since most of us have great lives and care far more about our families and learning than about fixing the world's problems, we stay out of it. Anyone who gets into it is usually someone who may be lacking the qualifications.

- To sum it up, most committee members mean well, and do an incredible amount of good. Therefore, when the VAAD tells people to vote for them, they follow. Although the influence of the VAAD is diminishing with the influx of chassidim, it's still strong enough to pull decisive victories, which keeps competition at bay.

Hope these points were clear. I have a lot more to say but I don't have time or brain space now...

ETA: IMO the biggest offender of irresponsible approvals now is Mayor Ray Coles
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 08:23:53 AM by YitzyS »

Offline Euclid

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #646 on: May 11, 2023, 08:23:27 AM »
"I don't have time or brainpower to write a comprehensive post"

*writes comprehensive post*

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #647 on: May 11, 2023, 08:28:06 AM »
"I don't have time or brainpower to write a comprehensive post"

*writes comprehensive post*
You should only know how much more I can add to that!

Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #648 on: May 11, 2023, 07:49:09 PM »
In the case of major roads, the county or state controls most of them and don't make changes, probably due to prohibitive costs
in this case all the only one designing cross through roads are the state / county
so the Township can blame everything on them

Offline WayBackMachine

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #649 on: May 11, 2023, 07:57:09 PM »
my first vote would be to add sidewalks on ceder bridge from avenue of the states to new hampshire

Offline LNS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #650 on: May 11, 2023, 09:09:29 PM »
sorry didn't read thru whole thread but why we cant just put pedestrian bridges where needed

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #651 on: May 11, 2023, 09:11:30 PM »
sorry didn't read thru whole thread but why we cant just put pedestrian bridges where needed
Sure, no problem. I'm ready for your credit card number whenever you are ready...

Offline Luvtotravel

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #652 on: May 11, 2023, 09:21:26 PM »
why exactly is this conversation in this thread? did the mother walk because she doesnt drive? dont women walk for any which reason despite them not being "prohibitted" from driving?
Don't wait for the perfect moment; take the moment and make it perfect.

Offline LNS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #653 on: May 11, 2023, 09:21:46 PM »
Sure, no problem. I'm ready for your credit card number whenever you are ready...

no need to be snippy i was just asking from a logistical point of view
i have heard so much talk about sidewalks ,traffic lights , cross walks
there are many places where bridges were put in for this same reason so just wondering why it cant be done in Lakewood
unless your saying money is the only issue

Offline LNS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #654 on: May 11, 2023, 09:23:32 PM »
why exactly is this conversation in this thread? did the mother walk because she doesnt drive? dont women walk for any which reason despite them not being "prohibitted" from driving?

there are plenty bochrim running across all these same roads all the time at all hours too

Offline avromie7

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #655 on: May 11, 2023, 09:28:26 PM »
why exactly is this conversation in this thread? did the mother walk because she doesnt drive? dont women walk for any which reason despite them not being "prohibitted" from driving?
Women in that community don't drive.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline LNS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #656 on: May 11, 2023, 09:30:26 PM »
Women in that community don't drive.

well this woman actually did

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #657 on: May 11, 2023, 10:18:45 PM »
no need to be snippy i was just asking from a logistical point of view
i have heard so much talk about sidewalks ,traffic lights , cross walks
there are many places where bridges were put in for this same reason so just wondering why it cant be done in Lakewood
unless your saying money is the only issue
Wasn't trying to be snippy, just to convey in (what I thought was) a humorous way that it will cost tons to fix the traffic issues, and your basic post of "can we just get some bridges" sounded like you were ordering off a menu, so I'll be happy to deliver, just waiting for you to give your payment info...

Again, meant to be funny. Sorry if it fell flat.

Offline LNS

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #658 on: May 11, 2023, 10:28:24 PM »
Wasn't trying to be snippy, just to convey in (what I thought was) a humorous way that it will cost tons to fix the traffic issues, and your basic post of "can we just get some bridges" sounded like you were ordering off a menu, so I'll be happy to deliver, just waiting for you to give your payment info...

Again, meant to be funny. Sorry if it fell flat.

no tone in text
and yes traffic issues but i was trying to address the pedestrian issue now

Offline Euclid

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #659 on: May 11, 2023, 10:30:47 PM »
well this woman actually did
I made the assumption because she was crossing route 70 at 10:00 at night with a couple kids. The only frum people I've ever seen cross that road were chassidish women - who I assumed werent drivers. Guess I made the wrong assumption.