Poll

Is your wife allowed to drive? (Females: Are you allowed to drive?)

Yes
97 (76.4%)
No
30 (23.6%)

Total Members Voted: 127

Author Topic: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?  (Read 33514 times)

Offline yzj

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 198
  • Total likes: 77
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usa
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #360 on: January 07, 2018, 08:56:27 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Source?

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8381
  • Total likes: 2073
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #361 on: January 07, 2018, 09:02:40 PM »
I definitely dont want my kid coming home and asking to go to MLE or BOB for a shabbos vacation just like a kid in class went. And wants to go upstairs on a 747, and sit in the cockpit.
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11427
  • Total likes: 138
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #362 on: January 07, 2018, 09:03:36 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.
I think women should 'protest' and start holding to this 'high level of tznius' and see how that goes.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Bukboy

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Mar 2016
  • Posts: 225
  • Total likes: 14
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #363 on: January 07, 2018, 09:08:35 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.
Yet the Rambam says that about specific places.
Learn the sigya. :כתובות עא

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5009
  • Total likes: 838
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #364 on: January 07, 2018, 09:11:26 PM »
coherence is a virtue
As is silence...
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline sky121

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 11427
  • Total likes: 138
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #365 on: January 07, 2018, 09:12:33 PM »
That's what scares me.
Nobody could care less right now. OOT is nice like that.
We can only start to understand this problem when we understand why people are so scares to send their kids to school where a parent might wear different colored shirt, or have a longer sheital than their own mother wears.
Or where a women drives when they don't.
Etc etc.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 56980
  • Total likes: 4800
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #366 on: January 07, 2018, 09:20:38 PM »
We can only start to understand this problem when we understand why people are so scares to send their kids to school where a parent might wear different colored shirt, or have a longer sheital than their own mother wears.
Or where a women drives when they don't.
Etc etc.
So incredibly sad.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2142
  • Total likes: 145
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #367 on: January 07, 2018, 09:51:38 PM »
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.

Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.

Offline efflpetzel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 2461
  • Total likes: 39
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #368 on: January 07, 2018, 09:58:00 PM »
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.
Beautifully said.

Unfortunately I've found that the concept you just stated exists only in chabad.


Offline yzj

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 198
  • Total likes: 77
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usa
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #369 on: January 07, 2018, 09:59:43 PM »
for all those that remember even rivka imeinu drove her own camel! ( not to mention that she fell off when she saw her husband0
As Rí Shlomo Hadarshan said that was because she came back in the evening and saw her chosson davening. She thought he was davening shachris since mincha wasnít around yet, so itís no wonder she fell off the camel. But thatís for a different thread..,

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 5280
  • Total likes: 531
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #370 on: January 07, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
You can't just make any dumb thing into a Yeherag V'al Yavor. Not everything is acceptable. It goes both ways. You can't mater everything and you can't asser everything. There's a reason why Lev Tahor is shunned and its founder considered a Rasha.

Offline Sport

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2265
  • Total likes: 82
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #371 on: January 07, 2018, 10:12:54 PM »
Beautifully said.

Unfortunately I've found that the concept you just stated exists only in chabad.
Or anywhere out side  of brooklyn and lakewood.
Its sad that we've  given the responsibility of chiniuch exclusively to the schools, to the extent that we can't  tolerate having someone in our kids schools that is  slightly diffrent than us.  we are paralyzed and have no way of imparting to our kids  what we believe  is important if they should c"v see something slightly diffrent.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8381
  • Total likes: 2073
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #372 on: January 07, 2018, 10:27:55 PM »
Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
I'm not sure that you haven't blurred some lines with your statements.

There's most definitely a difference between women wearing short sleeves and many of your other examples.

Going back to the original question of driving, I think the original reasoning has to do with כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, not so much as a tznius issue, but more as a royalty issue.

After all, yidden are בני ובנות מלכים, and just like a prince isn't expected to drive, but rather be driven, it might be viewed as unbefitting. Now, different people have a different level of איידלקייט, and some might appreciate certain things, while others might not see anything unbefitting in it. The mistake IMHO is when one tries to enforce a "standard of איידלקייט" which I think is an oxymoron.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2142
  • Total likes: 145
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #373 on: January 07, 2018, 10:49:57 PM »
I'm not sure that you haven't blurred some lines with your statements.

There's most definitely a difference between women wearing short sleeves and many of your other examples.

Going back to the original question of driving, I think the original reasoning has to do with כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, not so much as a tznius issue, but more as a royalty issue.

After all, yidden are בני ובנות מלכים, and just like a prince isn't expected to drive, but rather be driven, it might be viewed as unbefitting. Now, different people have a different level of איידלקייט, and some might appreciate certain things, while others might not see anything unbefitting in it. The mistake IMHO is when one tries to enforce a "standard of איידלקייט" which I think is an oxymoron.

The Satmar Rabbi seems to mix כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה with tznius
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89085.msg1862569#msg1862569

So does Rav Wosner
הגר"ש ואזנר שליט"א בשו"ת שבט הלוי חלק ד' סימן א' אות ב' שכתב בזה"ל, מן הנסיון למדתי שהוא דבר שראוי לאסרו איסור גמור, כי עצם הלימוד [של־נהיגה] גרם כבר וגורם לפריצות, והוא ההיפך הגמור מכל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, כמו שעצם הנהיגה הוא ממש להיפך כל כבודה וגו'. האשה חושפת עצמה בזה בשווקים ורחובות לעין כל רואה, נכשלת ומכשלת את האחרים. ואין דרכה של־אשה במרכב, עיין פסחים דף ג' ע"א. אעפ"י שהמציאות של־רכיבה על גבי בהמה אינו דומה לגמרי להא דידן, מכל־מקום בעצם אין דרכה בכך דומה בכמה דברים שקשה לפרש בכתב וכו'
ReplyQuoteNotify

Offline Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1845
  • Total likes: 2549
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #374 on: January 07, 2018, 10:54:00 PM »
Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
The question is on what basis the "red lines" are being built on. See also Obama, Barack.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.