Poll

Is your wife allowed to drive? (Females: Are you allowed to drive?)

Yes
130 (75.1%)
No
43 (24.9%)

Total Members Voted: 173

Author Topic: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?  (Read 121747 times)

Offline yzj

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #360 on: January 07, 2018, 08:56:27 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Source?

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #361 on: January 07, 2018, 09:02:40 PM »
I definitely dont want my kid coming home and asking to go to MLE or BOB for a shabbos vacation just like a kid in class went. And wants to go upstairs on a 747, and sit in the cockpit.
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline sky121

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #362 on: January 07, 2018, 09:03:36 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.
I think women should 'protest' and start holding to this 'high level of tznius' and see how that goes.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Bukboy

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #363 on: January 07, 2018, 09:08:35 PM »
  In  the highest level of tzinus woman are almost never supposed to leave their house.

Rambam Ishus 13:11

A husband should allow his wife leave the house once or twice or maybe a few times a month.
Yet the Rambam says that about specific places.
Learn the sigya. :כתובות עא

Online hvaces42

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #364 on: January 07, 2018, 09:11:26 PM »
coherence is a virtue
As is silence...
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Offline sky121

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #365 on: January 07, 2018, 09:12:33 PM »
That's what scares me.
Nobody could care less right now. OOT is nice like that.
We can only start to understand this problem when we understand why people are so scares to send their kids to school where a parent might wear different colored shirt, or have a longer sheital than their own mother wears.
Or where a women drives when they don't.
Etc etc.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Dan

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #366 on: January 07, 2018, 09:20:38 PM »
We can only start to understand this problem when we understand why people are so scares to send their kids to school where a parent might wear different colored shirt, or have a longer sheital than their own mother wears.
Or where a women drives when they don't.
Etc etc.
So incredibly sad.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #367 on: January 07, 2018, 09:51:38 PM »
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.

Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #368 on: January 07, 2018, 09:58:00 PM »
I have enough confidence in the chinuch I give my kids not to be adversely affected by such a class mate.

I also have confidence in my kids schools to give such solid chinuch, that if there was something inappropriate about parents הנהגות, it would eventually resolve through והשיב לב אבות על בנים.
Beautifully said.

Unfortunately I've found that the concept you just stated exists only in chabad.


Offline yzj

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #369 on: January 07, 2018, 09:59:43 PM »
for all those that remember even rivka imeinu drove her own camel! ( not to mention that she fell off when she saw her husband0
As R’ Shlomo Hadarshan said that was because she came back in the evening and saw her chosson davening. She thought he was davening shachris since mincha wasn’t around yet, so it’s no wonder she fell off the camel. But that’s for a different thread..,

Offline yelped

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #370 on: January 07, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
You can't just make any dumb thing into a Yeherag V'al Yavor. Not everything is acceptable. It goes both ways. You can't mater everything and you can't asser everything. There's a reason why Lev Tahor is shunned and its founder considered a Rasha.

Offline Sport

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #371 on: January 07, 2018, 10:12:54 PM »
Beautifully said.

Unfortunately I've found that the concept you just stated exists only in chabad.
Or anywhere out side  of brooklyn and lakewood.
Its sad that we've  given the responsibility of chiniuch exclusively to the schools, to the extent that we can't  tolerate having someone in our kids schools that is  slightly diffrent than us.  we are paralyzed and have no way of imparting to our kids  what we believe  is important if they should c"v see something slightly diffrent.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #372 on: January 07, 2018, 10:27:55 PM »
Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
I'm not sure that you haven't blurred some lines with your statements.

There's most definitely a difference between women wearing short sleeves and many of your other examples.

Going back to the original question of driving, I think the original reasoning has to do with כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, not so much as a tznius issue, but more as a royalty issue.

After all, yidden are בני ובנות מלכים, and just like a prince isn't expected to drive, but rather be driven, it might be viewed as unbefitting. Now, different people have a different level of איידלקייט, and some might appreciate certain things, while others might not see anything unbefitting in it. The mistake IMHO is when one tries to enforce a "standard of איידלקייט" which I think is an oxymoron.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #373 on: January 07, 2018, 10:49:57 PM »
I'm not sure that you haven't blurred some lines with your statements.

There's most definitely a difference between women wearing short sleeves and many of your other examples.

Going back to the original question of driving, I think the original reasoning has to do with כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, not so much as a tznius issue, but more as a royalty issue.

After all, yidden are בני ובנות מלכים, and just like a prince isn't expected to drive, but rather be driven, it might be viewed as unbefitting. Now, different people have a different level of איידלקייט, and some might appreciate certain things, while others might not see anything unbefitting in it. The mistake IMHO is when one tries to enforce a "standard of איידלקייט" which I think is an oxymoron.

The Satmar Rabbi seems to mix כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה with tznius
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89085.msg1862569#msg1862569

So does Rav Wosner
הגר"ש ואזנר שליט"א בשו"ת שבט הלוי חלק ד' סימן א' אות ב' שכתב בזה"ל, מן הנסיון למדתי שהוא דבר שראוי לאסרו איסור גמור, כי עצם הלימוד [של־נהיגה] גרם כבר וגורם לפריצות, והוא ההיפך הגמור מכל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, כמו שעצם הנהיגה הוא ממש להיפך כל כבודה וגו'. האשה חושפת עצמה בזה בשווקים ורחובות לעין כל רואה, נכשלת ומכשלת את האחרים. ואין דרכה של־אשה במרכב, עיין פסחים דף ג' ע"א. אעפ"י שהמציאות של־רכיבה על גבי בהמה אינו דומה לגמרי להא דידן, מכל־מקום בעצם אין דרכה בכך דומה בכמה דברים שקשה לפרש בכתב וכו'
ReplyQuoteNotify

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #374 on: January 07, 2018, 10:54:00 PM »
Looks like your doing a good job!

My point throughout this thread is everyone has a line they don't want to cross. We are judging someone else's line.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able to smoke, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting them drive.
Most here are fine with a woman not being able were short sleeves or pants, as opposed to men but question the legitimacy of not letting a woman drive.
Most don't want there kids in a class with a non-shomer shabbos kid but question someone else lines.
Some understand a family exposed to TV internet Movies as a valid line but question others line.


My point being as long as you have a line how can you judge some else that want to draw a different line.
The question is on what basis the "red lines" are being built on. See also Obama, Barack.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #375 on: January 07, 2018, 10:54:18 PM »
Unfortunately I've found that the concept you just stated exists only in chabad.

I recall Dan saying Chabad has big parts that are closer to MO then anything else.
Is that a result of mixed chinuch?
Was it that way when the Rebbe was in control?

I'm asking as I'm not sure I know the answer.

Online hvaces42

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #376 on: January 07, 2018, 10:57:44 PM »
The Satmar Rabbi seems to mix כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה with tznius
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89085.msg1862569#msg1862569

So does Rav Wosner
הגר"ש ואזנר שליט"א בשו"ת שבט הלוי חלק ד' סימן א' אות ב' שכתב בזה"ל, מן הנסיון למדתי שהוא דבר שראוי לאסרו איסור גמור, כי עצם הלימוד [של־נהיגה] גרם כבר וגורם לפריצות, והוא ההיפך הגמור מכל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, כמו שעצם הנהיגה הוא ממש להיפך כל כבודה וגו'. האשה חושפת עצמה בזה בשווקים ורחובות לעין כל רואה, נכשלת ומכשלת את האחרים. ואין דרכה של־אשה במרכב, עיין פסחים דף ג' ע"א. אעפ"י שהמציאות של־רכיבה על גבי בהמה אינו דומה לגמרי להא דידן, מכל־מקום בעצם אין דרכה בכך דומה בכמה דברים שקשה לפרש בכתב וכו'
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Rav Wosner basically says, I cant explain it but its wrong. That is not how you write a psak, I'm sorry. Thats a faith matter. Just as איידלקייט cant be legislated, so too faith cannot be legislated.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:22:22 PM by hvaces42 »
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #377 on: January 07, 2018, 11:04:34 PM »


I recall Dan saying Chabad has big parts that are closer to MO then anything else.
Is that a result of mixed chinuch?
Was it that way when the Rebbe was in control?

I'm asking as I'm not sure I know the answer.

Chabad is what the Rebbe says. Calling any behavior to the contrary "Chabad" because people who identify as Chabad act so is like saying all Jews are slumlords.

Regarding the "mixed chinuch" - you think I love that my daughter found out about Elsa in school? But ask me if I think a 5 year old should be kicked out of my daughter's class because she taught my בת מלך about a Disney princess and I'll tell you you're off the wall. To riff off @exgingi, If the icey Frozen "mixed chinuch" is going to be the cause of my kid not growing up with the values I want for her, the rest of the chinuch (at home primarily, but at school too) wasn't all that hot either.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #378 on: January 07, 2018, 11:17:07 PM »
I recall Dan saying Chabad has big parts that are closer to MO then anything else.
Is that a result of mixed chinuch?
Was it that way when the Rebbe was in control?

I'm asking as I'm not sure I know the answer.
I probably disagree with the statement about big parts being close to MO. But in a certain way, anyone can choose to call him or herself Chabad. There's no copyright or trademark (despite some power hungry people trying to get those).

One of my best friends is a real estate developer in Eretz Yisroel. He has worked extensively with Belz, so he got to see and learn quite a bit about the community.

He pointed out to me that the difference between Lubavitch and all other Chassidusn is that all others are communities, while Lubavitch is a movement.

When one is a member of a Chassidus, they might have to pay dues and adhere to certain rules, but in exchange are taken care of almost from cradle to grave.

Lubavitch is more of an ideological movement. There's no membership, and no one takes care of you cradle to grave, like it might be done in Satmar, Bobov or Belz.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Why do some Jewish communities prohibit women from driving?
« Reply #379 on: January 07, 2018, 11:28:56 PM »
I probably disagree with the statement about big parts being close to MO. But in a certain way, anyone can choose to call him or herself Chabad. There's no copyright or trademark (despite some power hungry people trying to get those).

One of my best friends is a real estate developer in Eretz Yisroel. He has worked extensively with Belz, so he got to see and learn quite a bit about the community.

He pointed out to me that the difference between Lubavitch and all other Chassidusn is that all others are communities, while Lubavitch is a movement.

When one is a member of a Chassidus, they might have to pay dues and adhere to certain rules, but in exchange are taken care of almost from cradle to grave.

Lubavitch is more of an ideological movement. There's no membership, and no one takes care of you cradle to grave, like it might be done in Satmar, Bobov or Belz.


Typical chabadskers living in their shell!

Satmar is not Bobov or Belz. Breslov is not Ger.
They are all so different in the way they see the community vs Chassidus.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:59:55 PM by mgarfin »