Poll

Are you frum and do you daven daily?

I'm frum and I (mostly) daven with a minyan 3x a day
93 (61.2%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) daven without a minyan 3x a day
18 (11.8%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) daven daily
22 (14.5%)
I'm frum and I (mostly) don't daven every day
13 (8.6%)
I'm not frum and I (mostly) daven daily
2 (1.3%)
I'm not frum and I (mostly) don't daven daily
4 (2.6%)

Total Members Voted: 152

Author Topic: Do you Daven?  (Read 26868 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12697
  • Total likes: 7377
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2018, 10:44:20 PM »
R @stbaum why do u need anonymity? stating where u are (or are not) should not be something you are embarrassed about, unless of course u are in a community where your kids will be kicked out of school/lose shidduchim.
To each her own
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7273
  • Total likes: 288
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2018, 10:45:50 PM »
When there’s a will there’s a way

That is easy for you to say

True cause im in Yeshiva however there are plenty of working people that are makpid and make a special effort to always Daven with a minyan
In a fantasy world. I know many who are "makpid" and make efforts, but still don't daven mincha with a minyan. It's not realistic for many.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6672
  • Total likes: 1086
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2018, 10:53:06 PM »
3. Youth memories, having their father slap them constantly
I can see how that might have an effect.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline shiframeir

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1514
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Programs: spg gold. nothing else. sigh.
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2018, 10:58:29 PM »
I think a few posters have collectively explained the issue.
To have a connection to tefilla, meaningful, at least, you need a few ingredients. You need to understand what you are saying (and I mean every word), otherwise, you will skip everything. You need to stop and think about what you are saying or you won't connect, even when you do understand. You need to believe that Hashem wants to hear what you are saying.
The first thing can, in theory, be rectified by iyun tefilla. The second, is harder. You need a lot of preparation. You need to shut off your phone  and clear your mind. Third takes a lot of mussar and hashkafa learning.
But it's doable for everyone, they just need to want to do it. They need to want it for themselves. Not for their wife, not for their kids. It can't be forced.

I think the problem is that we are in a world if constant distraction and instant results. That makes it harder. That is why tefillah is an avodah. Especially true today.
i learned in yeshiva for years and was a great davener (and i still am a great davener come tisha bav or other occasions). i know what every word means. i am a good concentrator and dont get distracted easily. but i am also very lazy and like to come up with excuses (i am a lawyer). and when excuses sound reasonable then the war is already lost.

For each their own, everyone is lacking in something. with Davening its all about understanding what you are saying.
If you don't understand its just standing and reading a book.
understanding doesnt give one a reason to take the significant time to say over the same thing again and again without any clear change in circumstance.

@shiframeir, you mention skipping davening to help your wife/kids/friends just a little bit more. Why not daven for them?

You also mention that you and others are "too practical" for the whole tefila idea. Why do you keep kashrus? Taahras hamishpacha? Is there a practical side to that?

I'm not trying to attack. However, @wayfe's husband seems to be maskim it's one of his shortcomings. You seem to be fine with your decisions.
Im not fine at all, i know im living bedieved and wish i was a superhero tzaddik. we have a mechanism that explains away when we are doing wrong (though it leads us to hyperfocus on yenem), and that is an important survival mechanism. i do not find fulfillment with minyan catching anymore. personally, for one reason or another i dont think deep down that its worth bothering hashem for most things for me, which he just always gives me when i need it anyway (bh i am lucky). i daven for my family/friends all the time in silent thought with god, but reading words written a long time ago like tachanun in shul with others just aint appealing and doesnt do the job nearly as good as a real cry to Him.

i dont remember what the practical thing was. i keep kashrus and taharas hamishpacha because God passed it down at sinai (with room for the rabbanan to make the gedarim) as rules of the road. prayer with minyan and by our standard text is a positive concept established by the rabbanan when we lost karbanos (lets not get into avos or karbanos). Im sure Hashem gets some nachas (whatever that means) from those who do it right and whose mindset/personality it fits to have a tight schedule of prayers etc. i did it for a long time and at some point it just wasnt working for me religously (or i'm just lacking or let my yetzer get the better). the point is though, hardly anyone is the whole package, thats what a gadol is. i happen to not be an avodah jew. and i know plenty of others like me.

Offline shiframeir

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1514
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Programs: spg gold. nothing else. sigh.
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2018, 11:00:45 PM »

Offline tzifanya54

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 140
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2018, 11:05:46 PM »
Just caught up on this thread.... A few observations.....

1) Is anyone else bothered that the primary reason to go to daven is because "one is already spending a lot living the kosher lifestyle?" (At least according to the OP). Is that really what it boils down to?

2) The trend here seems to be that people are not davening (or not davening with a minyon) due to their lack of excitement/connection with Hashem or the Tefilla etc... It's a standard nisayon just like anything else people go through.... Many people understand that learning is important but fall short there as well. OP husband agrees that it's not the right way, yet he's struggling with it, also known as a nisayon.

3) Half of iam's posts were deleted (by him I am assuming) right after writing them... either you beleive what you are saying or you don't.....

4) General litvishe yeshivahs stress learning  a lot more than davening (and the importance and necessity it is for our everyday lives). While the older generation understands and would greatly inconvenience themselves to daven and make minyan, many from the younger generation (while understanding that it is the right thing) don't feel the same level of importance for it, as they would attach to learning or other things.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7273
  • Total likes: 288
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2018, 11:07:21 PM »
The big issue for me with all this is that the the primary source of yiras shomayim is only absorbed by children directly from their parents. It is not something that is taught academically for the most part.

So if the parents are very lacking, the kids are totally lost. They will probably end up orthoprax at best. Notwithstanding the millions invested in yeshiva tuition.

Offline wayfe

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 744
  • Total likes: 57
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
Just caught up on this thread.... A few observations.....

1) Is anyone else bothered that the primary reason to go to daven is because "one is already spending a lot living the kosher lifestyle?" (At least according to the OP). Is that really what it boils down to?

The reason I wrote that was because it's the bare minimum.

If you aren't compelled to daven for reasons of Ahavas or Yira'as Hashem, then will you at least daven to complete the frum act?
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
— Richard Feynman

Offline tzifanya54

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 140
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2018, 11:14:21 PM »
The reason I wrote that was because it's the bare minimum.

If you aren't compelled to daven for reasons of Ahavas or Yira'as Hashem, then will you at least daven to complete the frum act?
Well that's simple. If the whole thing is just a charade, not davening isn't nearly as obvious as the other things... If your hope is more of a "metoch shelo lishmah buh lishmah.." then I understand, otherwise I'm just not sure what the point is if it's all fake...

Offline tzifanya54

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 140
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2018, 11:15:50 PM »
Yes, this was noted initially. There was a discussion about wearing a hat on shabbos being more valuable then davening during the week

I think the overall gist of the original chain hair was that females dont even register that this is a challenge for young men. In out dating, well often discuss grandiose ideas like TAG vs. HALB, but its taken for granted that Every. Male. Davens.
Yet you ignored the one question directed at you....

Offline iAm

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 37
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2018, 11:16:01 PM »

4) General litvishe yeshivahs stress learning  a lot more than davening (and the importance and necessity it is for our everyday lives). While the older generation understands and would greatly inconvenience themselves to daven and make minyan, many from the younger generation (while understanding that it is the right thing) don't feel the same level of importance for it, as they would attach to learning or other things.

Its more than daveining. My generation is quickly going from American Jews to Jewish Americans. And I know thats the struggle every generation. But the balabatush community is devolving to being halachikly stringent modern orthodox, if we dont address "cultural Judaism"
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 11:43:55 PM by iAm »
iThink. Ergo. iAm

Offline wayfe

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 744
  • Total likes: 57
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2018, 11:19:29 PM »
Well that's simple. If the whole thing is just a charade, not davening isn't nearly as obvious as the other things... If your hope is more of a "metoch shelo lishmah buh lishmah.." then I understand, otherwise I'm just not sure what the point is if it's all fake...

I guess it's just a bit of my bitterness coming through.

I can't stand fakes, and I would almost sooner get used to a secular lifestyle than go through this constant game of Now We're Frum, Now We're Not.

It just hurts too much...
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
— Richard Feynman

Offline tzifanya54

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 140
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2018, 11:23:24 PM »
I stand by everything Ive written. Also, when my friends and I decide to start going to minyan in a decade, I dont want my kids reading this thread :)

Its wayyy more than daveining. My generation is quickly going from American Jews to Jewish Americans. And I know thats the struggle every generation. But the balabatush community is devolving to being halachikly stringent modern orthodox
1) I would be more worried about Wayfes husband stumbling upon this thread....
2) I know this is personal but would you say you and your friends are from the better boys in Yeshivah? I'm not your age, it definetly wasn't like that in my days

Offline Abebee

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 4554
  • Total likes: 206
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 234
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
  • Programs: National EE
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2018, 11:29:36 PM »
Then will you at least daven to complete the frum act?
Its easy to keep kosher (living in Brooklyn for sure) its easy to wear a yamukah, its easy to go to shul on shabbos and schmooze with friends. It might boil down to laziness, but its hard to Daven 3 times a day with minyan.

Offline a good yeshiva bachur

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 2576
  • Total likes: 103
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2018, 11:32:30 PM »
personally, for one reason or another i dont think deep down that its worth bothering hashem for most things for me, which he just always gives me when i need it anyway (bh i am lucky).
Thats “krum”

Offline tzifanya54

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 140
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2018, 11:32:37 PM »
Its easy to keep kosher (living in Brooklyn for sure) its easy to wear a yamukah, its easy to go to shul on shabbos and schmooze with friends. It might boil down to laziness, but its hard to Daven 3 times a day with minyan.
What about expense? What about kosher out of Brooklyn? It didn't seem like that is an issue in OP's case. My point being that it doesn't sound like it's completely fake...

Offline iAm

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 37
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2018, 11:34:37 PM »
Its easy to keep kosher (living in Brooklyn for sure) its easy to wear a yamukah, its easy to go to shul on shabbos and schmooze with friends. It might boil down to laziness, but its hard to Daven 3 times a day with minyan.

Also, a lot of proactive actions in judaism (as opposed to prohibitions) are associated with strong cultural sentiments. Were not going to one year get lazy and not shake lulav-its fun. I have fond memories as a child of sitting in the sukkah. I love my pesach sedarim. It feels moral to give tzedaka (though thats underdone). Having a sader limud is a social experience; we may have fond memories of our days in yeshiva with our chavrusah.

Davening doesnt have that.

But if the above is true, were dovetailing on cultural judaism again.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 11:40:06 PM by iAm »
iThink. Ergo. iAm

Offline iAm

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 37
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2018, 11:39:44 PM »
What about expense? What about kosher out of Brooklyn? It didn't seem like that is an issue in OP's case. My point being that it doesn't sound like it's completely fake...

I dont think thats fair. Weve been trained to view lo saseis very different than aseis. When the OP mentioned the "spending alot on judaism" I didnt understand it as economical, as much as the 'pressure' to wear a black hat and cover your knees (and yes, tznius has become the new Asei)
iThink. Ergo. iAm

Offline stbaum

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1337
  • Total likes: 52
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2018, 12:09:02 AM »
I actually have another account on that one I’m a dude
My greatest achievement? I am fluent in FRIENDS quotes

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12697
  • Total likes: 7377
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Do you Daven?
« Reply #179 on: January 11, 2018, 12:12:49 AM »
I actually have another account on that one I’m a dude
The pronouns....
Feelings don't care about your facts