Author Topic: How do U define yourself, what does it mean & how would you like to see your kid  (Read 32742 times)

Offline AsherO

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For that matter Lubavitch doesn't exist.

If everyone’s a Lubavitcher, nobody is a Lubavitcher :P
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Offline ExGingi

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If everyone’s a Lubavitcher, nobody is a Lubavitcher :P

תכלית הידיעה שלא נדע

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Definitions2

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From today's "קיצור שו"ע" of being a Lubavitcher (I am sure this will resonate with all Lubavitchers out there, including @aygart, @EliJelly and even the Pravda Editorial Board):


I don't know how you can read it. I can barely see a word on my phone. I have to zoom in and even then the text isn't clear.

And this thread brings back memories. I read through it again. Interesting to see my perspective written 5(!) years ago.


Offline king solomon

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I don't know how you can read it. I can barely see a word on my phone. I have to zoom in and even then the text isn't clear.

And this thread brings back memories. I read through it again. Interesting to see my perspective written 5(!) years ago.
Where are you holding now? Do you have more clarity?

Offline imayid2

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And this thread brings back memories. I read through it again. Interesting to see my perspective written 5(!) years ago.
Indeed!

Offline Definitions2

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Where are you holding now? Do you have more clarity?
Pretty much the same.
Of course, yours truly :)
But I come with 2 or 3 major problems. One is relatively known on DDF the others aren't unless you know me in person.

If anybody wants they are more then welcome to arrange a chavrusashaft with me (I anyways need friends). Although it'd require anonymity.

Offline Dan

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I don't know how you can read it. I can barely see a word on my phone. I have to zoom in and even then the text isn't clear.

And this thread brings back memories. I read through it again. Interesting to see my perspective written 5(!) years ago.


@ExGingi has a weird obsession with making the Hayom Yom as least accessible as possible, ostensibly out of nostalgia.


Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline mevinyavin

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Thanks for bumping this thread.

I identify as a ben Torah, defined as someone who strives to keep the Torah as defined by the leaders of the generation, with a Rebbe to interpret them and to provide personalized guidance. (I used to call this 'yeshivish' while being aware that this fell short, but @yfr bachur commented that this label makes more sense, and I have since adopted it as my own.)
I have a more eclectic background than your average ben Torah FFB (my mother is a baalas teshuva and my father had his exciting years). The result is that I have seen more of the world than I would like (or admit, except in passing to those who would understand), but to me it is sufficient that I do not lie to myself about my flaws and strive to improve myself. There were times that my appearance was a lie, which I did because it would not do to burn any bridges when I fully intended to become better. Hashem was good to me and I found a meaningful way to live with Him.
I want my children to think critically and arrive at the truth, whichever flavor of avodas Hashem they choose is fine by me, and I would hope that they know enough to find a guide for themselves. If they would not think critically, or choose my truth instead of arriving at their own, it will water down how effective their avodas Hashem will be, so I hope they eventually have the intellectual maturity to arrive at their own conclusions.
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline Moshe Green

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The way I define myself does not allow me to post it here. Sorry.

But regarding my kids, as long as they go according to a respected Rav or Rebbe who has a Mesorah and they are fulfilling the Tafkid (using their talents) that Hashem put them on the world for, I'm happy with that. They don't need to be like me because they aren't me.

Offline Definitions2

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Pretty much the same.
To give some context. I haven't been looking into things much. I was and still am happy and confident enough in my current beliefs (even though they have changed slightly since then). I've been too busy slaving away at work and never set time to learn or delve into things much.

What I have noticed is that it's important to learn and even more important to daven. I haven't learned anything (for the most part) in the past couple of years. Same goes for davening. I found that the davening had a more significant effect on keeping my basic beliefs strong than learning. That's why I referred to learning as food as opposed to water here

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=106368.msg2685146#msg2685146

(I've also used it to answer a question of mine (whether it makes sense or not). How can the  chachamim be mesaken davening if according to them Torah is above all else? So I said to myself that davening is pikuach nefesh which overrides Torah learning. ©️ Definitions 2024)

Another thing I noticed is that it's possible to forget the basics if it hasn't been reviewed in a long time. For example I'm forgetting basic chumash. Not only that I forgot how to write certain ALEPH BAIS in script. Unbelievable.

Fairly recently I've changed my work schedule a bit and joined a nightseder program. So hopefully I'll become more knowledgeable and at least be on the level of a 15 year old. Yes, I really think I've forgotten so much that a 15 year old likely knows more than me.

Related to the link above: the part that I find painful for me is that I don't consider my beliefs to be that crazy. I have certain opinions (not related to yiddishkeit) that I know are not the standard. That I understand if people disagree with me since I can understand their side. But when it comes to yiddishkeit it bothers me immensely when I see other people going with a certain belief and not bothered by the same things that I'm bothered by. I ask myself how can it be? Am I the crazy one? Are my questions not good questions?

Then I also see people that are supposedly frum but don't act according to my view of what a frum person should be doing or believing so I assume that secretly they don't believe things. That also bothers me.

This is why I frequent the hashkafa thread here. Because I want to understand how people reconcile things which seem fishy in my eyes.

Funny that this was bumped in the week of parshas Yisro, where it's quite clear there's torah sh'bal peh. (Aside from the very obvious proofs written upthread that it has to be so).

I would reword my (dis)beliefs to this:
I don't believe in the vast majority of medrashim since I find it extremely hard to say unbelievable things like that happened and the Torah just skips it all out.
I don't either believe in ways we darshan halachos out (i.e. via r yishmoel 13 rules, extra letters*...) unless it is quite clear or even somewhat clear that it means that. Reason being, if you want to say something, say it. Don't put things into riddles where the ways to solve them, or even that they are there, aren't written.
I also still find a very big disconnect with the way things are described in tanach vs how an ideal frum life looks.

This just explains what I don't believe in. But obviously this leaves me with countless problems of what do I do when something isn't clear in something that I do believe in. And the truth is since I don't have something that I feel I can rely on 100%, I don't have an answer. I do the second best I can.
There are some things that I decided long ago that I'll have to go with what we have (I.e. dates for certain yomim tovim). There are others that I do differently (i.e. I won't eat a strawberry smoothie).

Hopefully this will change in the near future where Hashem will once again reveal himself, be known throughout the world, and we'll have direct access to the correct information. Otherwise to be honest I don't think my beliefs will change much.

*Related to darshening from extra letters. Another ©️ Definitions 2024 vort. At the end of shemonei esrei (nussch sefard and similar for ashkenaz)  it says  וכל הקמים והחושבים עלי רעה מהרה הפר עצתם וקלקל מחשבתם. What's the extra vav on וכל coming to be marbeh? I'd say it's being marbeh the person themself. That even though they have the bechira to choose something, still if it's bad, Hashem should change/destroy their own plans/thoughts.

Thank you for hearing me out :)
Hopefully you found something interesting in this long post.
Now it's time for me to go to sleep so I can continue slaving away at work tomorrow :(
(It's not such a bad job I'm exaggerating a bit)

Offline jye

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To give some context. I haven't been looking into things much. I was and still am happy and confident enough in my current beliefs (even though they have changed slightly since then). I've been too busy slaving away at work and never set time to learn or delve into things much.

What I have noticed is that it's important to learn and even more important to daven. I haven't learned anything (for the most part) in the past couple of years. Same goes for davening. I found that the davening had a more significant effect on keeping my basic beliefs strong than learning. That's why I referred to learning as food as opposed to water here

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=106368.msg2685146#msg2685146

(I've also used it to answer a question of mine (whether it makes sense or not). How can the  chachamim be mesaken davening if according to them Torah is above all else? So I said to myself that davening is pikuach nefesh which overrides Torah learning. ©️ Definitions 2024)

Another thing I noticed is that it's possible to forget the basics if it hasn't been reviewed in a long time. For example I'm forgetting basic chumash. Not only that I forgot how to write certain ALEPH BAIS in script. Unbelievable.

Fairly recently I've changed my work schedule a bit and joined a nightseder program. So hopefully I'll become more knowledgeable and at least be on the level of a 15 year old. Yes, I really think I've forgotten so much that a 15 year old likely knows more than me.

Related to the link above: the part that I find painful for me is that I don't consider my beliefs to be that crazy. I have certain opinions (not related to yiddishkeit) that I know are not the standard. That I understand if people disagree with me since I can understand their side. But when it comes to yiddishkeit it bothers me immensely when I see other people going with a certain belief and not bothered by the same things that I'm bothered by. I ask myself how can it be? Am I the crazy one? Are my questions not good questions?

Then I also see people that are supposedly frum but don't act according to my view of what a frum person should be doing or believing so I assume that secretly they don't believe things. That also bothers me.

This is why I frequent the hashkafa thread here. Because I want to understand how people reconcile things which seem fishy in my eyes.

Funny that this was bumped in the week of parshas Yisro, where it's quite clear there's torah sh'bal peh. (Aside from the very obvious proofs written upthread that it has to be so).

I would reword my (dis)beliefs to this:
I don't believe in the vast majority of medrashim since I find it extremely hard to say unbelievable things like that happened and the Torah just skips it all out.
I don't either believe in ways we darshan halachos out (i.e. via r yishmoel 13 rules, extra letters*...) unless it is quite clear or even somewhat clear that it means that. Reason being, if you want to say something, say it. Don't put things into riddles where the ways to solve them, or even that they are there, aren't written.
I also still find a very big disconnect with the way things are described in tanach vs how an ideal frum life looks.

This just explains what I don't believe in. But obviously this leaves me with countless problems of what do I do when something isn't clear in something that I do believe in. And the truth is since I don't have something that I feel I can rely on 100%, I don't have an answer. I do the second best I can.
There are some things that I decided long ago that I'll have to go with what we have (I.e. dates for certain yomim tovim). There are others that I do differently (i.e. I won't eat a strawberry smoothie).

Hopefully this will change in the near future where Hashem will once again reveal himself, be known throughout the world, and we'll have direct access to the correct information. Otherwise to be honest I don't think my beliefs will change much.

*Related to darshening from extra letters. Another ©️ Definitions 2024 vort. At the end of shemonei esrei (nussch sefard and similar for ashkenaz)  it says  וכל הקמים והחושבים עלי רעה מהרה הפר עצתם וקלקל מחשבתם. What's the extra vav on וכל coming to be marbeh? I'd say it's being marbeh the person themself. That even though they have the bechira to choose something, still if it's bad, Hashem should change/destroy their own plans/thoughts.

Thank you for hearing me out :)
Hopefully you found something interesting in this long post.
Now it's time for me to go to sleep so I can continue slaving away at work tomorrow :(
(It's not such a bad job I'm exaggerating a bit)
It quite strange that you would pass judgement on a belief system with admittedly the knowledge of a 15 year old. No one would ever do so in any other capacity. Would you reject a broad segment of nuclear physics because it doesn’t make sense to you as a layman? There are classic writing going back millennia from the greatest of our nation, with untold amount of ink spilled discussing the nature of Torah Shebaal Peh, the drashos given over to Chazal, the dating of the yomim tovim you mentioned, and the fact that medrashim are not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Rabbeinu Saadya Gaons Emunos V’deios, the Chovos Halevavos, the Moreh Nevuchim, Albo, Kuzari, Hakdama of the Ibn Ezra, Drashos Haran, Ramchal etc. You would go well to reserve judgement until you have gone through at least rudimentary parts of these writings before rejecting concepts that you lack any real familiarity with.

But obviously this leaves me with countless problems of what do I do when something isn't clear in something that I do believe in. And the truth is since I don't have something that I feel I can rely on 100%, I don't have an answer. I do the second best I can.
There are some things that I decided long ago that I'll have to go with what we have (I.e. dates for certain yomim tovim). There are others that I do differently (i.e. I won't eat a strawberry smoothie).
Sometimes the question is half the answer.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 06:46:34 AM by jye »

Offline imayid2

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I don't believe in the vast majority of medrashim since I find it extremely hard to say unbelievable things like that happened and the Torah just skips it all out.
The Ramban says that you don’t need to believe the midrash if you don’t want to, so this is a shvacha kfira :)

Offline jye

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The Ramban says that you don’t need to believe the midrash if you don’t want to, so this is a shvacha kfira :)
It’s ok. He has קביעת המועדים, the laws of bitul, and the י״ג מידות as backup :)

In truth things in Tanach were very different from how frum life looks today to the point of being almost unrecognizable in many ways. Frum life today revolves around shul, davening, seforim, Shabbos , yom tov, and the like.

During most of Tanach frum Jews did not wear yarmulkes. They did not daven 3 times a day. There were no shuls. No special tefillos on the high holy days. Other than a Sefer Torah or Chumash there were no seforim or even siddurim. No washing hands. No brachos before eating. People carried freely on shabbos everywhere except the most major thoroughfare. Handled money and muktzah and conducted business deals if they wished. Didn’t make kiddush or havdalah on a כוס. According to many they didn’t eat a Seudah on shabbos or yom tov. No Chanukah, Purim, or most fast days. No sheva brachos. No shalom Zachor, kiddush or bar mitzvah celebrations. Bar mitzvah wasn’t even on the 13th birthday.

There were relations outside of what we call marriage. Very different laws of taharas hamishpacha. They ate plenty of meat and milk together and freely cooked chicken and milk dishes. Didn’t have bishul akum. Used treifa pots and facilities without koshering them in most cases. And so much more. In short almost unrecognizable.

Yet the written Torah was given part and parcel with the Torah shebaal peh which was meant to evolve according to the chachamim in each dor, and is in fact the underpinning of the קיום of the תורה שבכתב, so we can say that frum life as it looks today is every much the רצון הבורא as the vastly different frum life that existed in the days of Tanach.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 09:09:49 AM by jye »

Offline imayid2

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Yet the written Torah was given part and parcel with the Torah shebaal peh which was meant to evolve according to the chachamim in each dor,
Nice post
I’d add that this is explicit in the Torah that there is a בית דין in charge of interpreting the Torah ועשית ככל אשר יורוך

Offline whacked1

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Torah shebaal peh which was meant to evolve according to the chachamim in each dor,.
Source?

Offline jye

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Nice post
I’d add that this is explicit in the Torah that there is a בית דין in charge of interpreting the Torah ועשית ככל אשר יורוך
It is explicit as well as implicit as pointed out by the drashos Haran and so many others.

Offline AsherO

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During most of Tanach frum Jews did not wear yarmulkes. They did not daven 3 times a day. There were no shuls. No special tefillos on the high holy days. Other than a Sefer Torah or Chumash there were no seforim or even siddurim. No washing hands. No brachos before eating. People carried freely on shabbos everywhere except the most major thoroughfare. Handled money and muktzah and conducted business deals if they wished. Didn’t make kiddush or havdalah on a כוס. According to many they didn’t eat a Seudah on shabbos or yom tov. No Chanukah, Purim, or most fast days. No sheva brachos. No shalom Zachor, kiddush or bar mitzvah celebrations. Bar mitzvah wasn’t even on the 13th birthday.

"Most of Tanach" was before churban bayis sheni and the tanaaim, and even before anshei kneses hagdola. Anything that was established by those wouldn't have been practiced before, perhaps anything that isn't halacha lemoshe misinai.
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Offline jye

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Source?
Alluded to in many pesukim in the Torah. For example the explained the possuk ושמרתם את משמרתי" (ויקרא יח ל) – עשו משמרת למשמרתי
“You shall establish safeguards to my commandments.”

ועשית על פי הדבר אשר יגידו לך מן המקום ההוא אשר יבחר יהוה ושמרת לעשות ככל אשר יורוך
“You shall do as they will instruct you”

לא תסור מכל אשר יגידו לך ימין ושמאל
״You shall not deviate from anything they tell you”

As the Rambam writes:

"אחד דברים שלמדו אותן מפי השמועה והם תורה שבעל פה, ואחד דברים שלמדום מפי דעתם באחת מן המידות שהתורה נדרשת בהן ונראה בעיניהם שדבר זה כך הוא, ואחד דברים שעשאום סייג לתורה ולפי מה שהשעה צריכה והן הגזרות והתקנות והמנהגות, כל אחד ואחד מאלו השלשה דברים מצות עשה לשמוע להן, והעובר על כל אחד מהן עובר בלא תעשה, הרי הוא אומר "על פי התורה אשר יורוך" - אלו התקנות והגזירות והמנהגות, שיורו בהם לרבים כדי לחזק הדת ולתקן העולם, "ועל המשפט אשר יאמרו" - אלו דברים שילמדו אותן מן הדין באחת מן המדות שהתורה נדרשת בהן, "מכל הדבר אשר יגידו לך" - זו הקבלה שקבלו איש מפי איש

There is a fascinating Ran , Drashos 11 who describes the concept that even if the chachamim in any generation use the י”ג מידות to come to a conclusion interpreting the Torah in error, that becomes the רצון הבורא:

אחר שהשלים מנוי מצות השופטים ויכלתם מהו ומה ראוי שישתדלו בו יותר והוא למחות זכר ע"א, התחיל לבאר אל השופטים אם יקרה להם ספק בדבר מה איך יתנהגו, וצוה אליהם שיתנהגו בדבר ההוא ע"פ מה שיבררו ב"ד הגדול כאמרו כי יפלא ממך דבר וגו' על פי התורה וגו', ובא בקבלה ז"ל אפי' אומר לך על ימין שהוא שמאל וכו', כלו' אפי' ברור לך שאין האמת כדברי הוראת הסנהדרין אעפ"כ שמע אליהם, כי כן צוה ה' ית' שננהוג בדברי תורה ומצותיה כפי מה שיכריעו הם, יסכימו לאמת או לא יסכימו. וזה ענין ר' יהושע עם רבן גמליאל שצוהו רבן גמליאל שיבא במעותיו ביום הכפורים שחל להיות בחשבונו וכן עשה, שאחר שהש"י מסר ההכרעה אליהם מה שיסכימו הם הוא מה שצוה ה' בדבר ההוא, ועל זה אנו בטוחים במצות התורה ובמשפטים שהם מקיימים רצון השם ית' בהם כל זמן שנסמוך על מה שהסכימו גדולי הדור.
והוא אמרם בריש חגיגה (דף ג) שמא תאמר הואיל והללו מטמאין והללו מטהרין וכו' היאך אני לומד תורה מעתה ת"ל כלם נתנו מרועה אחד כלן פרנס אחד אמרן מפי אדון כל המעשים ברוך הוא שנא' וידבר משה את כל הדברים האלה. הנה ביאר המטהרין והמטמאין הפוסלים והמכשירים כלן אמרם משה מפי הגבורה ואי אפשר אם לא על צד שכתבנו, כי אחרי שדברי המטמאים והמטהרים הפכיים בעצמם אי אפשר ששניהם יסכימו לאמת איך נאמר שכלן נאמרו למשה מפי הגבורה ומי איכא ספיקא קמי שמיא. אבל הענין כך על הדרך שכתבנו, שה' יתברך מסר הכרעת אלה כלם לחכמי הדור וצונו שנמשך אחריהם, ונמצא שמה שיסכימו הם בדבר מהמדברים הוא מה שנצטוה משה מפי הגבורה, וגם כן נאמין שאם הסכימו הפך האמת ונדע זה על ידי בת קול או נביא אין ראוי שנסור מהסכמת החכמים. וזה הוא ענין ר' אליעזר הגדול עם החכמים כמוזכר בפרק הזהב (בבא מציעא דף מח) שאע"פ שנתן אותות גדולים וחזקים שהאמת כדבריו ויצתה בת קול מן השמים ואמרה מה לכם אצל ר' אליעזר שהלכה כמותו בכל מקום אעפ"כ כשלא רצה להסכים לדבריהם נמנו עליו וברכוהו. לפי שלא מסר הש"י הכרעת ספקות התורה לנביא ולא לבת קול אלא לחכמי הדור, וזה שעמד ר' יהושע על רגליו ואמר לא בשמים היא:
ומפורש עוד בתמורה, שאין צריך לומר שאין ראוי שימשך אחר הנביאים הפך הסכמת החכמים אבל גם אם יספקו החכמים בדבר מה, אין לנו שנקח ביאור הספק ההוא על פי נביא אבל יותר טוב שישאר הדבר בספקו, שאמרו שם שבימי אבלו של משה נשתכחו וכו' ואמרו לו ליהושע שאל ואמר להם לא בשמים היא, ונאמר עוד שם שעמדו עליו כל ישראל ואמר לו הקב"ה לומר לך אי אפשר לך וטרדן במלחמה:
והנה יש כאן מקום עיון כי זה ראוי שימשך על דעת מי שיחשוב שאין טעם למצות התורה כלל אלא כלן נמשכות אחר הרצון לבד, ולפי זה אחר שהדבר מצד עצמו איננו ראוי להיות טמא או טהור דרך משל אבל מה שטמאתהו או טהרתהו נמשך אחר הרצון לבד, הנה א"כ לפי זה הנמשך אחר כל מה שיניחו חכמי הדור שאי אפשר שיהיו דבריהם על הפך האמת, וא"א שימשך מהענין ההוא בנפשותינו דבר מגונה כלל, אבל אחרי שאנחנו לא נבחר בזה הדעת, אבל נאמין שכל מה שמנעתהו התורה ממנו מזיק אלינו ומוליד רושם רע בנפשותינו ואע"פ שלא נדע סבתו, לפי זה הדעת א"כ כשיסכימו החכמים בדבר אחד טמא שהוא טהור מה יהיה, הלא הדבר ההוא יזיק אותנו ויפעל מה שבטבעו לפעול, ואע"פ שהסכימו בו החכמים שהוא טהור. ואלו יסכימו הרופאים על סם אחד שהוא שוה והוא על דרך משל חם במעלה הרביעית, שאין ספק שלא תמשך פעולת החום בגוף מה שיסכימו בו הרופאים, אבל כפי טבעו בעצמו, כן הדבר שאסרה לנו התורה מחד שהוא מזיק בנפש איך ישתנה טבע הדבר ההוא מצד שהסכימו החכמים שהוא מותר, זה אי אפשר רק על צד הפלא, והיה ראוי אם כן יותר שנמשך בזה על פי מה שתתברר לנו מצד נביא או בת קול, שעל דרך זה נתברר לנו אמתת הדבר בעצמו:
ויש לומר בזה, שהענין נוהג במצוה זאת בחקת התורה כמו שינהגו הכחות הטבעיים בחק הטבע, שכמו שהן הטבעו באדם או בדבר הטבעי אשר לו הכחות ההן לצורך תקונו, ובכלל על הרוב ימשך מהם תקון, ועם כל זה לפעמים ועל צד הזרות ימשך מהם בעצמם הפסד, הטבע לא נשמר מן ההפסד כי אי אפשר שיהיה תקונו ביותר מזה, כן הענין בשוה בחק המצוה הזאת, כי כמו שהכח המושך הטבע באדם כדי שימשוך מזונו אי אפשר לו מבלעדיו, עד שאם יבטל הכח ההוא ימות, ועם כל זה הכח המושך ההוא ימשוך דבר בלתי נאות יתילד ממנו חולי ברוב הזמן, והטבע לא ישגיח על זה, אבל עקר כונתו היה על התקון הכללי הנמשך תמיד ולא יקפיד על ההפסד הנופל על צד הזרות, שאי אפשר לתקון ענינו ביותר מזה, כן הענין במצוה זו בשוה, שהתורה השגיחה לתקן ההפסד שהיה אפשר שיפול תמיד והוא פרוד הדעות והמחלוקת, ושתעשה תורה כב' תורות, ותקצה ההפסד התמידי הזה כשמסרה הכרעת הספקות לחכמי הדור, שעל הרוב ימשך מזה תקון ויהיה משפטם צודק, כי שגיאות החכמים הגדולים מועטות ממי שהוא למטה מהם בחכמה, וכ"ש כח הסנהדרין העומדים לפני ה' ית' במקדשו ששכינה עמהם, ועם היות שלפעמים אפשר שעל צד הפלא והזרות ישגו בדבר מה, לא חששה תורה להפסד ההוא הנופל מעט, כי ראוי לסבול אותו מצד רוב התקון הנמשך תמיד, ואי אפשר לתקן יותר מזה, כמו שהוא בחק הטבעי בשוה.
בחרה התורה שתמסור הכרעת הספקות לחכמים ולא מסרה לנביאים, לסבות רבות, שהדבר ברור שאין הנביאים מתנבאים בכל עת, וא"כ מה נעשה בימים אשר היה דבר ה' יקר אלינו, ועוד שגלוי וידוע היה לפניו שהנבואה לא שופעת אלינו תמיד אבל יגיע עת שיגרמו עונינו לסתום חזון ונביא, ואם הכרעת הספקות תהיה נמסרת לנביאים מה נעשה בזמן אין חזון נפרץ, נשוטט לבקש את דבר ה' ולא נמצא. ולכן חכמתו גזרה שתמסר ההכרעה לחכמים אשר לא סר ולא יסור, כמו שהובטחנו על זה כי לא תשכח מפי שרענו ועוד שאין נבואת הנביא שצויתנו התורה המשך אחר דבריו, בענין שלא יהיה אפשר שיפול בו ספק אם היא אמתית אם לאו, כמו שיתברר לפנינו ולכן בחרה התורה יותר שתמסר ההכרעה לחכמים שיסכימו עליה בטעם וראיה משתמסר לנביא, אחר שלא יתאמתו דבריו כי אם מצד האות ואותו אות אפשר שיהיו דברים בגו:
ואני סובר עוד שאי אפשר שימשך ממה שיכריעו הסנהדרין הפסד בנפש כלל, גם כי יאכילו דבר האיסור ושיאמרו בו שהוא מותר. לפי שהתקון אשר ימשך בנפש מצד ההכרעה למצות החכמים מורי התורה הוא הדבר היותר אהוב אצלו, כאמרו הנה שמוע מזבח טוב, ותקון ההוא יסיר הרוע אשר הוא מעותד להתילד בנפש מצד אכילת הדבר האסור ההוא, וכיוצא בדבר זה בעצמו יקרה בגוף, כי המאכל המזיק כשיאכלהו האוכל על דעת שמועיל אליו, הנה מחשבתו תפעל באוכל ההוא ויסור ממנו היזקו אם לא שיהיה מופלג. כן הענין כשימשך האדם אחר מצות הסנהדרין, גם כי ישיגו ויכירו בדבר האסור שהוא מותר, המשכו אחר עצתם והיותו נמשך אחריהם יסיר מנפשו כל אותו רוע שהיה ראוי שיתילד מצד אכילת הדבר האסור ההוא, ולכן צותה התורה ואמרה לא תסור מן הדבר וגו'. והנה נשלם בזה ענין השופטים ותקונם
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 09:28:44 AM by jye »

Offline aygart

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I would reword my (dis)beliefs to this:
I don't believe in the vast majority of medrashim since I find it extremely hard to say unbelievable things like that happened and the Torah just skips it all out.
I don't either believe in ways we darshan halachos out (i.e. via r yishmoel 13 rules, extra letters*...) unless it is quite clear or even somewhat clear that it means that. Reason being, if you want to say something, say it. Don't put things into riddles where the ways to solve them, or even that they are there, aren't written.
I also still find a very big disconnect with the way things are described in tanach vs how an ideal frum life looks.

Maybe your understanding or what should be in the Torah is wrong. It is not a history book but rather a book of laws. Any story line that is included is there for a reason other than the story itself. Therefore it is no question why some seemingly important stories in TSBP are not in TSBK.

THe way we have sources for many halachos from drashos are not the way it originally was. Many were more simply as halachos given over to Moshe and among those forgotten during his aveilus and then restored through these drashos. These halachos could have been given over explicitly as an oral tradition with the drashos as a way they were hinted to or alluded to in the Torah and a way to ensure they are not permanently forgotten.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Euclid

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It’s ok. He has קביעת המועדים, the laws of bitul, and the י״ג מידות as backup :)

In truth things in Tanach were very different from how frum life looks today to the point of being almost unrecognizable in many ways. Frum life today revolves around shul, davening, seforim, Shabbos , yom tov, and the like.

During most of Tanach frum Jews did not wear yarmulkes. They did not daven 3 times a day. There were no shuls. No special tefillos on the high holy days. Other than a Sefer Torah or Chumash there were no seforim or even siddurim. No washing hands. No brachos before eating. People carried freely on shabbos everywhere except the most major thoroughfare. Handled money and muktzah and conducted business deals if they wished. Didn’t make kiddush or havdalah on a כוס. According to many they didn’t eat a Seudah on shabbos or yom tov. No Chanukah, Purim, or most fast days. No sheva brachos. No shalom Zachor, kiddush or bar mitzvah celebrations. Bar mitzvah wasn’t even on the 13th birthday.

There were relations outside of what we call marriage. Very different laws of taharas hamishpacha. They ate plenty of meat and milk together and freely cooked chicken and milk dishes. Didn’t have bishul akum. Used treifa pots and facilities without koshering them in most cases. And so much more. In short almost unrecognizable.

Yet the written Torah was given part and parcel with the Torah shebaal peh which was meant to evolve according to the chachamim in each dor, and is in fact the underpinning of the קיום of the תורה שבכתב, so we can say that frum life as it looks today is every much the רצון הבורא as the vastly different frum life that existed in the days of Tanach.
(This sounds like a sequel to the aveira song)