Author Topic: How do U define yourself, what does it mean & how would you like to see your kid  (Read 32736 times)

Offline jye

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(This sounds like a sequel to the aveira song)
It crossed my mind as I was writing it :)

Offline Moshe Green

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...
Another thing I noticed is that it's possible to forget the basics if it hasn't been reviewed in a long time. For example I'm forgetting basic chumash. Not only that I forgot how to write certain ALEPH BAIS in script. Unbelievable.

Fairly recently I've changed my work schedule a bit and joined a nightseder program. So hopefully I'll become more knowledgeable and at least be on the level of a 15 year old. Yes, I really think I've forgotten so much that a 15 year old likely knows more than me.
...
Thank you for hearing me out :)
Hopefully you found something interesting in this long post.
Now it's time for me to go to sleep so I can continue slaving away at work tomorrow :(
(It's not such a bad job I'm exaggerating a bit)
If this gives you any Chizzuk.
A relative of my wife just past away.
He was 90.
He was a scientist for the navy.
Although he learned in Yeshiva he didn't really have a Kavua learning schedule. He also used to go to work w/o a yarmulka (until a certain incident where he started-story to itself).
Until one Simchas Torah 40 years ago where he really got into it and had a Hisorarus to start learning daily.
He decided right then and there to start Daf Yomi and to know it.
With help from his wife, he started going to a Shiur before davening and recorded it. On the way to work he listened to the recording in the car and when he came home he listened to it again.
He eventually started giving his own shiur (just met someone today who was in it for 10 years).
He then started giving another shiur and then started Yerushalmi Yomi with the shiur as well.
It's never too late to get into learning again!


Offline EliJelly

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The Ramban says that you don’t need to believe the midrash if you don’t want to, so this is a shvacha kfira :)

Where is there such a Ramban? I know a Ramban with a strong משמעות otherwise. (Not going into how literal to interpret the midrashim, but simply not believe it?)



Nicely done. Really needless to say but still worthy to add lest there's someone who isn't aware, the Gra said we have no השגה in the emunah and ידיעה אלוקית of a simple boy בזמן הבית. They had the Mishkan and then the Bais Hamikdosh and all the neviem which were a powerhouse of distributing the light of Torah and yiddishkeit even without all those added mitzvos and halachos, in a way we cannot imagine.

Offline imayid2

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Where is there such a Ramban? I know a Ramban with a strong משמעות otherwise. (Not going into how literal to interpret the midrashim, but simply not believe it?)
In his debate with the Christian. It’s up for debate if he meant it 100%. But are other similar mr”m, see the kook edition in the footnotes.

Offline ExGingi

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Nice post
I’d add that this is explicit in the Torah that there is a בית דין in charge of interpreting the Torah ועשית ככל אשר יורוך

If I may add, in the time of the ביהמ"ק there was גילוי אלקות כפשוטו right there (מקום הארון מן המדה ואינו מן המדה, etc.)

מיום שחרב ביהמ"ק אין לו להקב"ה אלא ד אמות של הלכה.

The churban was a major concealment of G-dliness, and it is our job as Yidden to find and reveal אלקות anywhere and everywhere through תורה ומצוות. If you learn chassidus you might get a taste of the differences between עלמא דאתכסיא and עלמא דאתגליא, and ימות המשיח where we will bez"h have very soon the מעלות of both combined to a greater revelation of אלקות than ever before.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline imayid2

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If I may add, in the time of the ביהמ"ק there was גילוי אלקות כפשוטו right there (מקום הארון מן המדה ואינו מן המדה, etc.)

מיום שחרב ביהמ"ק אין לו להקב"ה אלא ד אמות של הלכה.

The churban was a major concealment of G-dliness, and it is our job as Yidden to find and reveal אלקות anywhere and everywhere through תורה ומצוות. If you learn chassidus you might get a taste of the differences between עלמא דאתכסיא and עלמא דאתגליא, and ימות המשיח where we will bez"h have very soon the מעלות of both combined to a greater revelation of אלקות than ever before.
If I may politely decline the bold, as it’s not something I believe in :)

Offline ExGingi

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If I may politely decline the bold, as it’s not something I believe in :)

צמצום כפשוטו?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline imayid2

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צמצום כפשוטו?
Nice try!
Pantheism isn’t the alternative.

Offline Definitions2

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It quite strange that you would pass judgement on a belief system with admittedly the knowledge of a 15 year old. No one would ever do so in any other capacity. Would you reject a broad segment of nuclear physics because it doesn’t make sense to you as a layman? There are classic writing going back millennia from the greatest of our nation, with untold amount of ink spilled discussing the nature of Torah Shebaal Peh, the drashos given over to Chazal, the dating of the yomim tovim you mentioned, and the fact that medrashim are not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Rabbeinu Saadya Gaons Emunos V’deios, the Chovos Halevavos, the Moreh Nevuchim, Albo, Kuzari, Hakdama of the Ibn Ezra, Drashos Haran, Ramchal etc. You would go well to reserve judgement until you have gone through at least rudimentary parts of these writings before rejecting concepts that you lack any real familiarity with.
Sometimes the question is half the answer.
It shouldn't be something like nuclear physics.
I did go through the rudimentary parts. I didn't do an extremely deep dive through everything and go through each of the seforim you mentioned cover to cover.

About the disconnect, I obviously didn't mean things that didn't exist during those times. I'm referring to ideals that are timeless.
An extreme example which like you say, an untold amount of ink likely has been written. The story of Dovid and Avishag. Would that fly today? You'll tell me from today until tomorrow that it's to be mechaper for Batsheva in the same place and situation. People were much bigger in earlier generations. Malchus. And I'll ask you the same as before. Would that fly today? Which gabbai would even think of that?
This is the first thing that comes to mind. And I wouldn't even want to use it as an example.
I mainly think of examples of avodas Hashem that should've been amplified throughout everything yet is barely touched on at all.

P.s.
you do seem quite knowledgeable and thought through your yiddishkeit. Others here as well. But you stick out. I respect it. I also appreciate your answers in the other thread about bechira. I do intend to get back to it at some point when I have time and I'm not lazy.

p.p.s.
your username is jye. The opposite of the person upthread eyj. He doesn't seem to be active anymore (unless you're the same person.)

Offline imayid2

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About the disconnect, I obviously didn't mean things that didn't exist during those times. I'm referring to ideals that are timeless.
An extreme example which like you say, an untold amount of ink likely has been written. The story of Dovid and Avishag. Would that fly today? You'll tell me from today until tomorrow that it's to be mechaper for Batsheva in the same place and situation. People were much bigger in earlier generations. Malchus. And I'll ask you the same as before. Would that fly today? Which gabbai would even think of that?
Why do you think that incident is an “ideal which is timeless”?

Offline Definitions2

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Maybe your understanding or what should be in the Torah is wrong. It is not a history book but rather a book of laws. Any story line that is included is there for a reason other than the story itself. Therefore it is no question why some seemingly important stories in TSBP are not in TSBK.

THe way we have sources for many halachos from drashos are not the way it originally was. Many were more simply as halachos given over to Moshe and among those forgotten during his aveilus and then restored through these drashos. These halachos could have been given over explicitly as an oral tradition with the drashos as a way they were hinted to or alluded to in the Torah and a way to ensure they are not permanently forgotten.
To me it looks like it is partially a history book. If it wasn't then it should've said whatever it was aluding to straight out.
No need for riddles or simanim.

Offline Definitions2

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Why do you think that incident is an “ideal which is timeless”?
I don't know where to start from

Offline imayid2

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I don't know where to start from
How about from why you decided it is a timeless ideal?

Offline Definitions2

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How about from why you decided it is a timeless ideal?
You're asking good. I definitely won't be able to respond to it tonight.

Offline EliJelly

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To me it looks like it is partially a history book. If it wasn't then it should've said whatever it was aluding to straight out.
No need for riddles or simanim.

Not an answer but I'm curious what's the difficulty to accept that those were way beyond your comprehension, is it because accepting that things aren't suppose to be comprehended by folks in 2024 is also beyond comprehension? Is there a rational אלא מאי you're more comfortable with anyway?

Offline Definitions2

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How about from why you decided it is a timeless ideal?
I think you're right. I won't be able to say it's not ideal unless I can give a clear halachic dispute to it or the logic. (I.e. it's not the same situation, if it prevents from being mekayim any mitzvos, is teshuva in that form overriding other mitzvos, why wait until now, why not from Dovid himself. )
I'm not equipped to go there.

I guess it's more the going away from the simple meaning that was bothering me.

Offline Definitions2

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Not an answer but I'm curious what's the difficulty to accept that those were way beyond your comprehension, is it because accepting that things aren't suppose to be comprehended by folks in 2024 is also beyond comprehension? Is there a rational אלא מאי you're more comfortable with anyway?
I don't understand what you mean here. What's beyond comprehension?

Offline imayid2

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I think you're right. I won't be able to say it's not ideal unless I can give a clear halachic dispute to it or the logic. (I.e. it's not the same situation, if it prevents from being mekayim any mitzvos, is teshuva in that form overriding other mitzvos, why wait until now, why not from Dovid himself. )
I'm not equipped to go there.

I guess it's more the going away from the simple meaning that was bothering me.
I’m not mot following your train of thought.

What about the simple meaning makes it a “timeless ideal”? Dovid was old and had the chills and his advisers thought this to be a remedy.

He had no taava and there was no erva here so no Halacha problem before yichud and other issuray derabanon kicked in.

Offline EliJelly

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I don't understand what you mean here. What's beyond comprehension?

For example the story of Dovid and Avishag you struggle with. There are great explanations given for it although usually above our paygrade to grasp fully. The fact that things of that nature wouldn't fit well for frum people in our generations can also be said about other things we see in Tanach and Chazal. Obviously the purity and holiness of the giants of those times is beyond comprehension for you but at the time it was of no concern for anyone to say s'past nisht.


Offline imayid2

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Don’t leave us hanging @Definitions2