Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread

[Sport]

Like get the good doctor to set the protocols while some guy who has never been in an operating room just follows them.

That's what happens.

[henche]

Like get the good doctor to set the protocols while some guy who has never been in an operating room just follows them.

Without getting bogged down in the details of the comparables, that article was noting that certain types of commercial kitchen tools are nonintuitive in how to kasher them.

So for example, he notes that the big soup thing can't be kashered. So the protocol is don't kasher it.

He notes that the fryer needs libun gamur. So you make a protocol on how to do libun gamur on deep fryers.  A roofing torch? Ok. For how long? 10 seconds per spot? Ok.  I can tell you that your expert is also not sitting there measuring temperatures, and can't "read" the temperature of steel by sight.

The dishwasher? Make a protocol.

How is this different than every other issue with hashgacha, that you have the experts making protocols for bug washing and bishul akum and whatever, and then the rank and file does it. 

[moko]

The following was recently posted on an Israeli kashrus TG group.

I find much of what he writes inaccurate. There are many varieties of each item he writes about and some of his info is simply wrong

[aygart]

Without getting bogged down in the details of the comparables, that article was noting that certain types of commercial kitchen tools are nonintuitive in how to kasher them.

So for example, he notes that the big soup thing can't be kashered. So the protocol is don't kasher it.

He notes that the fryer needs libun gamur. So you make a protocol on how to do libun gamur on deep fryers.  A roofing torch? Ok. For how long? 10 seconds per spot? Ok.  I can tell you that your expert is also not sitting there measuring temperatures, and can't "read" the temperature of steel by sight.

The dishwasher? Make a protocol.

How is this different than every other issue with hashgacha, that you have the experts making protocols for bug washing and bishul akum and whatever, and then the rank and file does it. 

I didn't read the specifics of the article at all, but it is not always possible to just follow instructions without supervision. It may not be an expert ho9lding the torch etc, but one should be supervising the ones doing it.

[PlatinumGuy]

Why would a stove top need to be kashered?

[aygart]

Why would a stove top need to be kashered?

http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=46447#p=1&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%u05D7%u05E6%u05D5%u05D1%u05D4

[eyj]

Without getting bogged down in the details of the comparables, that article was noting that certain types of commercial kitchen tools are nonintuitive in how to kasher them.

So for example, he notes that the big soup thing can't be kashered. So the protocol is don't kasher it.

He notes that the fryer needs libun gamur. So you make a protocol on how to do libun gamur on deep fryers.  A roofing torch? Ok. For how long? 10 seconds per spot? Ok.  I can tell you that your expert is also not sitting there measuring temperatures, and can't "read" the temperature of steel by sight.

The dishwasher? Make a protocol.

How is this different than every other issue with hashgacha, that you have the experts making protocols for bug washing and bishul akum and whatever, and then the rank and file does it.

I was speaking to someone who does commercial koshering for places that would probably be considered mainstream. He couldn’t get all the gook off the deep fryer and said it was impractical to do libun gamur so he just did a davar hapogen, and then hagalah. He says this kind of thing is done in many of the mainstream places. The clients won’t take no for an answer so they rely on tzirufim and bidieveds and try to do the best they can. The guy would never rely on this in his own kitchen, but patrons will say that guy was in charge of the koshering so it must be really good....

[henche]

I was speaking to someone who does commercial koshering for places that would probably be considered mainstream. He couldn’t get all the gook off the deep fryer and said it was impractical to do libun gamur so he just did a davar hapogen, and then hagalah. He says this kind of thing is done in many of the mainstream places. The clients won’t take no for an answer so they rely on tzirufim and bidieveds and try to do the best they can. The guy would never rely on this in his own kitchen, but patrons will say that guy was in charge of the koshering so it must be really good....

Doing hagalah on a fryer to begin with is not pashut.

Look, if you wanna be in hashgacha, you need to be able to say no.

[ExGingi]

Doing hagalah on a fryer to begin with is not pashut.

Look, if you wanna be in hashgacha, you need to be able to say no.

Doing proper Libun to a commercial fryer, or for that matter many other pieces of commercial kitchen equipment, is likely to ruin it.

Any idiot can say no or ossur, that's the easiest way out. One needs to have proper Halachic authority to say it's OK, or to find an acceptable solution. Which goes back to:

they rely on tzirufim and bidieveds and try to do the best they can. The guy would never rely on this in his own kitchen

So for the select few that truly cannot make their own Pesach, this is the best option. But for those going to the programs only for luxury and convenience, it is most likely a big Halachic

bidieved

And is truly unfortunate that the beauty of hiddur Mitzvah, and hiddur Kashrus is lost to some perceived luxury.

[eyj]

Doing proper Libun to a commercial fryer, or for that matter many other pieces of commercial kitchen equipment, is likely to ruin it.

Any idiot can say no or ossur, that's the easiest way out. One needs to have proper Halachic authority to say it's OK, or to find an acceptable solution. Which goes back to:

So for the select few that truly cannot make their own Pesach, this is the best option. But for those going to the programs only for luxury and convenience, it is most likely a big Halachic

And is truly unfortunate that the beauty of hiddur Mitzvah, and hiddur Kashrus is lost to some perceived luxury.

He found a halachic authority who was not happy but basically said if the owner won’t take no for an answer you can probably rely on tzirufim to do hagalah after trying to get off whatever will come off. He feels that he is working for the owner and people shouldn’t assume he is koshering according to his personal standards and as long as he has what to rely on that is ok.

[moko]

He couldn’t get all the gook off the deep fryer and said it was impractical to do libun gamur so he just did a davar hapogen, and then hagalah.

I have found over many years that if the fryer is drained and cleaned after every use (party rentals...), then often they are kasherable. Regarding ones that are not cleaned very often, you need to boil it with fryer cleaning solution which removed the gunk. Problem is there is still a lot of carbon build up. Libun kal is impossible on a deep fryer since it will break. Also you will have to remove the thermostat.
Libun kal is an option though. Other problem is.that if it's not drained and cleaned regularly, there is build up between the double wall which cannot be cleaned without disassembling the entire fryer.

[henche]

I have found over many years that if the fryer is drained and cleaned after every use (party rentals...), then often they are kasherable. Regarding ones that are not cleaned very often, you need to boil it with fryer cleaning solution which removed the gunk. Problem is there is still a lot of carbon build up. Libun kal is impossible on a deep fryer since it will break. Also you will have to remove the thermostat.
Libun kal is an option though. Other problem is.that if it's not drained and cleaned regularly, there is build up between the double wall which cannot be cleaned without disassembling the entire fryer.

The one in the pic is a tilt fryer, not a deep fryer.  Are you referring to tatty also

[Sport]

He found a halachic authority who was not happy but basically said if the owner won’t take no for an answer you can probably rely on tzirufim to do hagalah after trying to get off whatever will come off. He feels that he is working for the owner and people shouldn’t assume he is koshering according to his personal standards and as long as he has what to rely on that is ok.

This is utterly ridiculous. Unless we're missing more info. I dont think this represents what happens in all hotel programs. Maybe some,  but its no diffrent than all matters of hechsherim, some are better than others and some are complete jokes.

[henche]

This is utterly ridiculous. Unless we're missing more info. I dont think this represents what happens in all hotel programs. Maybe some,  but its no diffrent than all matters of hechsherim, some are better than others and some are complete jokes.

You don't need to get defensive just because you've gone to a pesach program

[Sport]

You don't need to get defensive just because you've gone to a pesach program

You dont need to get defensive just because you rely on  ou/star-k/crc etc..

[churnbabychurn]

This is utterly ridiculous. Unless we're missing more info. I dont think this represents what happens in all hotel programs. Maybe some,  but its no diffrent than all matters of hechsherim, some are better than others and some are complete jokes.

It for sure is the norm imho

[aygart]

It for sure is the norm imho

On what basis?

[elit]

It for sure is the norm imho

unless u have a good clarification for that statement then that is DCOTY

[henche]

unless u have a good clarification for that statement then that is DCOTY

Yah, yah, PUOSU

[churnbabychurn]

On what basis?

http://www.crcweb.org/kosher_articles/hotel_kashering.php


"Rav Schachter suggested that when consumers kasher their own homes they do not leave even the most miniscule amount of residue on the utensils (i.e. they do not rely on the leniency outlined above), and they expect/assume that hashgachos hold themselves to a similar standard.  If one subscribes to this position,4 there is no room for leniency in the cleaning of equipment."



No room. Right. So just tell everyone to stay home..