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Author Topic: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread  (Read 187192 times)

Offline mochjas

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #140 on: January 29, 2018, 07:16:57 AM »
Do Rabbis really put their names on these programs and then go and don't eat there? That is very misleading and they are causing people to sin. It should be safe to assume that if a rabbi that is well respected puts his name on the program that the food is reliable to eat.

Offline CS1

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #141 on: January 29, 2018, 08:48:01 AM »
Do Rabbis really put their names on these programs and then go and don't eat there? That is very misleading and they are causing people to sin. It should be safe to assume that if a rabbi that is well respected puts his name on the program that the food is reliable to eat.

it is under that rabbi's supervision. They do not all eat there. Same with the singers/speakers. If Avraham Fried is singing somewhere or Rabbi Jacobson is speaking somewhere, this does not mean that they are both eating from that hotel kitchen, as well.
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2018, 09:07:40 AM »
If the article inaccurately reported the photo as having been taken a few hours before the Seder, but was in reality taken at breakfast I stand corrected and should have been DL”Z...

DL"Z means one does so regardless of knowing the facts, or even of the facts themselves. DL"Z means doing so with no if's when's or but's. I am saying this to myself too.
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2018, 09:11:30 AM »
Do Rabbis really put their names on these programs and then go and don't eat there? That is very misleading and they are causing people to sin. It should be safe to assume that if a rabbi that is well respected puts his name on the program that the food is reliable to eat.

That's a little harsh.

The Warners (or at least R Simcha Werner) don't eat from the kitchen of the programs they run. That doesn't mean that they don't try to keep to the highest standards of Kashrus at the programs. It just means that they don't go to programs for Pesach.
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2018, 09:18:29 AM »
That's a little harsh.

The Warners (or at least R Simcha Werner) don't eat from the kitchen of the programs they run. That doesn't mean that they don't try to keep to the highest standards of Kashrus at the programs. It just means that they don't go to programs for Pesach.
I think he is referring more to a program like this one.
BEWARE OF THIS PLACE.

They change the name every year. i was there last year, no food, and horrible program. I cant even begin to tell you how bad this place is. there is no hashgocha. there was milicig and fleshig trays and dishes used interchangeably. i saw with my own eyes.
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2018, 09:39:37 AM »
+1
And @aygart, I actually heard from a very Ehrliche program director that he is more comfortable eating from the hotel kitchen than he was at home the one year he stayed home. Odd, I know, but true.

A few things are at play there. First a large dose of cognitive dissonance. Also, considering that it was his one year at home it is not so odd at all. He has zero comfort level making a house kasher l'pesach after all these years and did not feel confident in himself. That also means that his family minhagim about making pesach were lost since he only knows what to do for a commercial kitchen using institutionalized standards.

This is in itself a big chisaron of the pesach programs. It is the institutionalization of another aspect hich should be passed from parent to child.
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Offline henche

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2018, 09:43:30 AM »
That's a little harsh.

The Warners (or at least R Simcha Werner) don't eat from the kitchen of the programs they run. That doesn't mean that they don't try to keep to the highest standards of Kashrus at the programs. It just means that they don't go to programs for Pesach.

I don't know this person.  But my gut reaction is that seems very messed up. I can't imagine serving ppl food that I wasn't comfortable with.

Offline Yammer

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2018, 09:48:41 AM »
Do Rabbis really put their names on these programs and then go and don't eat there? That is very misleading and they are causing people to sin. It should be safe to assume that if a rabbi that is well respected puts his name on the program that the food is reliable to eat.
I don't know this person.  But my gut reaction is that seems very messed up. I can't imagine serving ppl food that I wasn't comfortable with.
1) Reb Moishe never allowed his children to eat CS. Does that mean that he didn't allow it?

2) it could be that Rabbi Werner is makpid not to eat food from other ppl.

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2018, 09:49:10 AM »
I don't know this person.  But my gut reaction is that seems very messed up. I can't imagine serving ppl food that I wasn't comfortable with.

I would guess that he looks at it the same as someone giving a hechsher on cholov stam even though they don't use it. At one point an RC at the OU told me that every RC at the OU only used cholov yisroel. Here too he "doesn't mish" and therefore wouldn't eat at the hotel even though he feels it is reliably kosher or simply that he, like just about everyone else, feels that there is no way that a hotel can meet the standards of home.
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #149 on: January 29, 2018, 09:51:29 AM »

That also means that his family minhagim about making pesach were lost since he only knows what to do for a commercial kitchen using institutionalized standards.

This is in itself a big chisaron of the pesach programs. It is the institutionalization of another aspect hich should be passed from parent to child.
Very well stated. I think the only “commercial” Pesach kitchen where one might acquire hiddurim is the one of 770. (Are there any other yeshivos that are open for Pesach?)

But even beyond minhagim, there might be some compromises.

For example, a few years ago I decided to take my family to Florida for pesach, and while we had our own home with brand new appliances. We did go to my BILs Chabad House for the sedorim and some meals.

As they were kashering the kitchen for Pesach, I checked with a friend who is knowledgeable and experienced about the methods used. When discussing the commercial convection oven, I was told that the methods used are acceptable but not lechatchila.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2018, 10:05:17 AM »
Very well stated. I think the only “commercial” Pesach kitchen where one might acquire hiddurim is the one of 770. (Are there any other yeshivos that are open for Pesach?)

But even beyond minhagim, there might be some compromises.

For example, a few years ago I decided to take my family to Florida for pesach, and while we had our own home with brand new appliances. We did go to my BILs Chabad House for the sedorim and some meals.

As they were kashering the kitchen for Pesach, I checked with a friend who is knowledgeable and experienced about the methods used. When discussing the commercial convection oven, I was told that the methods used are acceptable but not lechatchila.
WHen my great uncle had his hotel in the mountains in the 50s, 60s, and 70s the kitchen was also run according to home standards and it was mostly a bunch of sisters in aw doing the cooking. Even when they hired a cook they were still quite involved and kept to home standards. The type of kitchen was not the same as a current commercial kitchen either. He had no hechsher but all of the gedolim of the time including R Moshe, R Aharon, the Debreciner Rov and the Mattersdorfer Rov and many others all ate there. At one point he had a hotel in Lakewood and that is where R Shneur's chasuna was. Things were different then, but a yeshiva type kitchen has a much easier time than a hotel.

My uncle had told me that for a period he also had a hotel in Miami. Before opening he went to check into the shchita there and for whatever reason was dissatisfied. There was also a train which brought meat from an NY shchita down to FL. In order to check it out he drove alongside the train one week. At one station a worker sees him and calls him over to rinse the meat since it wasn't yet salted. The worker gave him a hose and he was lifting the chunks to make sure he rinsed all over. The worker asked why it was taking so long since "everyone else just gives a quick spray around the car". So he didn't take that meat either. Instead he got the meat from a shchita in NJ and rushed it to his Lakewood hotel to salt it and rushed it back to be in time for the train going down keeping his packed separately.
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Offline thaber

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2018, 10:36:22 AM »
I don't know this person.  But my gut reaction is that seems very messed up. I can't imagine serving ppl food that I wasn't comfortable with.
Thoroughly discussed and argued elsewhere, there are two distinct schools of thought here. Pesach seems to be more understandable to others than generally serving food you won't eat.

Offline thaber

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #152 on: January 29, 2018, 10:37:09 AM »


1) Reb Moishe never allowed his children to eat CS.
That is straight up baloney

Offline thaber

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #153 on: January 29, 2018, 10:38:05 AM »


He has zero comfort level making a house kasher l'pesach after all these years and did not feel confident in himself. That also means that his family minhagim about making pesach were lost since he only knows what to do for a commercial kitchen using institutionalized standards.


This was mentioned

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2018, 10:39:56 AM »
DL"Z means one does so regardless of knowing the facts, or even of the facts themselves. DL"Z means doing so with no if's when's or but's. I am saying this to myself too.

That is true, but if it was a verifiable fact that things were as reported, the DL”Z would have been of a different nature, perhaps that it was better to serve matzah because some of the clientele would otherwise eat Chametz , or not have the exposure to an environment that they could grow from etc. This would have been DL”Z yet would not have been a ringing endorsement of the kashrus standards.

I was going to leave it at that, but seeing as to how the experience is being cast as being lechatchilah and perhaps more kosher than ones own kitchen, I would like to be clear that there is much to say beyond the kashrus of the food, and I’ll just discuss one aspect. The mode of dress of some of the clientele clearly leaves much to be desired, making spending Passover in such a place bidieved for clear halachic reasons other than the food. ( There may be reasons that upon carefull consultation with ones rabbi would perhaps make it lechatchila for some despite this- illness, family, kiruv, etc.) It is not somewhere I, or many others I know would consider a kosher environment, since kashrus extends to all areas of Halacha.

The Rabbis who supervise these events are obviously doing it for the mitvah of supplying kosher food, parnassa,etc. and not because it is the ideal environment they would prefer that they or their families would want to be in. (Rabbi Leibel Miller does kosher cruises as well- they are a small kosher part of regular cruise ships and have their own tznius compromises as is well known). Obviously a cursory glance through many of the trip reports etc. on DD will make it clear that many of the destinations discussed on DD have significant halachic issues regardless of how kosher the food is. At one point I had to be in Miami and went to one of the attractions discussed on the forums that seemed pretty innocuous, but quickly realized that I made a huge mistake tznius wise and had to leave.

My error was specifically in extrapolating from the other aspects to the  kashrus standards of the food when I should have been DL”Z in this area.


Offline Dave321

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2018, 11:46:24 AM »
Found it.

No hechsher either..

It seems like Rabbi Goldwasser is with his program every year.

I'd love to know what he says..

I personally spoke with rabbi goldwasser about the kashrus and he didnt know much about it.... Not trying to bash him but it seems like he was relying on rabbi berdia, who as i mentioned has very limited hashgocha experience.

The bottom line is it was mainly for sefradim and buchariyims, and to really stuff the place to the gills they marketed it also to the litvish and chasidish crowds. to say some people were mad about that is an understatement.

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2018, 11:48:15 AM »
I don't know this person.  But my gut reaction is that seems very messed up. I can't imagine serving ppl food that I wasn't comfortable with.

Didn't you (or at least your gut) get the message about DL"Z?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline mercaz1

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2018, 12:46:37 PM »
I personally spoke with rabbi goldwasser about the kashrus and he didnt know much about it.... Not trying to bash him but it seems like he was relying on rabbi berdia, who as i mentioned has very limited hashgocha experience.

The bottom line is it was mainly for sefradim and buchariyims, and to really stuff the place to the gills they marketed it also to the litvish and chasidish crowds. to say some people were mad about that is an understatement.

Did you ask him how he can eat at a place without knowing more about the hechsher?

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #158 on: January 29, 2018, 12:56:52 PM »


I personally spoke with rabbi goldwasser about the kashrus and he didnt know much about it....


Offline elit

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2018, 01:01:11 PM »
1) Reb Moishe never allowed his children to eat CS. Does that mean that he didn't allow it?

2) it could be that Rabbi Werner is makpid not to eat food from other ppl.



That is straight up baloney

+1

That is true, but if it was a verifiable fact that things were as reported, the DL”Z would have been of a different nature, perhaps that it was better to serve matzah because some of the clientele would otherwise eat Chametz , or not have the exposure to an environment that they could grow from etc. This would have been DL”Z yet would not have been a ringing endorsement of the kashrus standards.

I was going to leave it at that, but seeing as to how the experience is being cast as being lechatchilah and perhaps more kosher than ones own kitchen, I would like to be clear that there is much to say beyond the kashrus of the food, and I’ll just discuss one aspect. The mode of dress of some of the clientele clearly leaves much to be....

My error was specifically in extrapolating from the other aspects to the  kashrus standards of the food when I should have been DL”Z in this area.

nope once again you're painting everything with a broad brush that just isnt true
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:07:13 PM by elit »