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Author Topic: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread  (Read 196170 times)

Online moko

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #200 on: January 29, 2018, 10:34:46 PM »
Yeah I guess. But what's the kula that they all rely on for this?
pm"g. Non-melacha hachana Al yedai akum.

Online moko

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #201 on: January 29, 2018, 10:36:15 PM »
Who says there's a kula, experience and proper planning goes a long way in running a smooth program.
+💯

Online moko

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #202 on: January 29, 2018, 10:40:08 PM »
I don't know if it's a literal list. He mentioned offhand they're have to have a shabbos elevator, no kashering dishwashers, something about hachana issues. That's all I remember.
Shabbos locks
Shabbos elevator
Separate swimming (exclusively)
No rooms overlooking the pool (unless pool is tented)
Kosher eruv
No hachana


They will kasher dishwashers if done properly. All gaskets and seals removed. All screens and filters removed. Complete breakdown of all parts. If there is a belt, it's crucial to remove it. I have found entire sets of dishes (with dinner  :o under the belts. Then libun kal with a torch to all metal parts and hagala for all rubber parts.
We kasher box dishwashers by several clients for pesach and it's not a big deal.
There are programs that conform but have no interest in paying a hefty OU rate.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:45:09 PM by moko »

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #203 on: January 29, 2018, 10:49:29 PM »
I would never judge others. I spent time in the five towns area and knew people who’s dress left much to be desired yet were giants in chessed and were spiritual growth oriented people. I once helped run a kapparos event and there were women in jeans shlugging kapparos- they wanted to be spiritually connected. I’m sure there are many ultra frum people who can’t come close to them. Do I know if I am better than Ivanka spiritually? I really don’t have the gaava to make that claim.

My point is simple: There is more to a program than it’s kosher food standards. For some it is an amazing, uplifting, spiritual experienc. But for someone who aspires to a high standard, and currently lives with that standard of observance, to choose a program based on its advertised high food kashrus standards may be making a mistake.
That's a nice point and in general I would agree with you, but since when did any "spiritual uplifting" come before a possible issur kares? This isn't about whether or not a program is spiritually better or worse than being at home, this is about whether or not the food is kosher, especially given that this is a case of an issur kares, not regular kashrus.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #204 on: January 29, 2018, 10:58:34 PM »
pm"g. Non-melacha hachana Al yedai akum.
Lol, new I could count on you for that one.
Shabbos locks
Shabbos elevator
Separate swimming (exclusively)
No rooms overlooking the pool (unless pool is tented)
Kosher eruv
No hachana


They will kasher dishwashers if done properly. All gaskets and seals removed. All screens and filters removed. Complete breakdown of all parts. If there is a belt, it's crucial to remove it. I have found entire sets of dishes (with dinner  :o under the belts. Then libun kal with a torch to all metal parts and hagala for all rubber parts.
We kasher box dishwashers by several clients for pesach and it's not a big deal.
There are programs that conform but have no interest in paying a hefty OU rate.
Dunno what the story is with the dishwashers, that's what he told me an hour ago. Maybe he meant that it's a sticking point because they often don't want to do it properly.

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #205 on: January 29, 2018, 11:58:04 PM »
That's a nice point and in general I would agree with you, but since when did any "spiritual uplifting" come before a possible issur kares? This isn't about whether or not a program is spiritually better or worse than being at home, this is about whether or not the food is kosher, especially given that this is a case of an issur kares, not regular kashrus.

Very unlikely to encounter an issur  kares even in a poorly run program. Kezayis b’kdei achilas peras is not going to happen. I was referring to a program that has decent kashrus standards. My point was that the atmosphere can be uplifting for some but unacceptable for others depending on where they are holding spiritually.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #206 on: January 30, 2018, 12:03:02 AM »
Very unlikely to encounter an issur  kares even in a poorly run program. Kezayis b’kdei achilas peras is not going to happen. I was referring to a program that has decent kashrus standards. My point was that the atmosphere can be uplifting for some but unacceptable for others depending on where they are holding spiritually.
First of all that's not entirely true, I've heard of stories where the workers have brought in totally non kosher (and chametz) food, that's what happens when you're not overly strict and watching all the time. Regardless, that's not the point, I don't think anyone is actually worried about getting a chametz crouton in their soup, the reason we are noheg to be some machmir when it comes to pesach is because it's an issur kares. We try to be as strict as we possibly can (within reason) to make sure we don't come close to being over an issur chametz.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #207 on: January 30, 2018, 12:08:35 AM »


There are programs that conform but have no interest in paying a hefty OU rate.
Thought this over, and I don't really get it. How is it that they have plenty of customers for all their other kashrus services (commercial products, restaurants, etc) despite their hefty rates, but somehow Pesach is different?

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #208 on: January 30, 2018, 12:48:22 AM »
I once helped run a kapparos event and there were women in jeans shlugging kapparos- they wanted to be spiritually connected. I’m sure there are many ultra frum people who can’t come close to them.
Off topic.I respectfully disagree with your statement that there are ultra frum people that don't/can't come close to those ladies.
But that is based on my definition of what frum is.

That's a nice point and in general I would agree with you, but since when did any "spiritual uplifting" come before a possible issur kares? This isn't about whether or not a program is spiritually better or worse than being at home, this is about whether or not the food is kosher, especially given that this is a case of an issur kares, not regular kashrus.
I think he was saying that you should pick a place with BOTH, high kashrus standards and a good environment. That you shouldn't assume the environment based on it's kashrus.

My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #209 on: January 30, 2018, 01:31:06 AM »
Off topic.I respectfully disagree with your statement that there are ultra frum people that don't/can't come close to those ladies.
But that is based on my definition of what frum is.

I disagree, and I’m not talking about a lady who is pseudo ultra frum. You can have a genuinely frum woman who grew up in an environment where she absorbed her ideas and ideals via osmosis from her home/ circle of friends/ teachers- and she gets credit for who she is- but nowhere near a woman who grew up in an environment hostile to being frum, who struggled every step of the way to grow and become the person she is.

See the Ohr Zaruah in hilchos kriyas shema where he talks about echad hamarbeh v’echad hamam’it

Offline a mirrer

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #210 on: January 30, 2018, 08:32:09 AM »
Also, why do they care if there's a shabbos elevator if anything I would think they'd be opposed to having one?
my guess would be because of all the people who go up with the staff in regular elevators on shabbos and y"t

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #211 on: January 30, 2018, 10:31:41 AM »
Off topic/popcorn/can of worms/why am i doing this../because i can't help myself:
Why are frum men so concerned with what women wear? Why are you google image searching appearance vs finding out if attendees are respectful to the people around them, do the attendees speak loshon hora? But no, yet again it's focused on what the attendees are wearing and ignoring the other 612 criteria of what makes someone frum.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #212 on: January 30, 2018, 10:33:51 AM »
Off topic/popcorn/can of worms/why am i doing this../because i can't help myself:
Why are frum men so concerned with what women wear? Why are you google image searching appearance vs finding out if attendees are respectful to the people around them, do the attendees speak loshon hora? But no, yet again it's focused on what the attendees are wearing and ignoring the other 612 criteria of what makes someone frum.

Because it’s an easy way to feel superior if the woman in your household dress according to higher standards. If we focused on the areas we may fall short. 

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #213 on: January 30, 2018, 10:43:19 AM »
Off topic/popcorn/can of worms/why am i doing this../because i can't help myself:
Why are frum men so concerned with what women wear? Why are you google image searching appearance vs finding out if attendees are respectful to the people around them, do the attendees speak loshon hora? But no, yet again it's focused on what the attendees are wearing and ignoring the other 612 criteria of what makes someone frum.
Because it's an accurate meter of judging someone instantly, as opposed to other things.
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline mochjas

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #214 on: January 30, 2018, 10:47:55 AM »
Because it's an accurate meter of judging someone instantly, as opposed to other things.
who gave you the right to judge someone?

Offline henche

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #215 on: January 30, 2018, 10:50:29 AM »
who gave you the right to judge someone?

Same as gave you the right to question our judging.

Stable genius here.

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #216 on: January 30, 2018, 10:52:42 AM »
Off topic/popcorn/can of worms/why am i doing this../because i can't help myself:
Why are frum men so concerned with what women wear? Why are you google image searching appearance vs finding out if attendees are respectful to the people around them, do the attendees speak loshon hora? But no, yet again it's focused on what the attendees are wearing and ignoring the other 612 criteria of what makes someone frum.

Because it is the most easily discernible dealbreaker for some. Once one filters based on the most easily observed criteria he can enquirer further as to the crowd, respectfulness middos etc. It doesn’t make sense to do things backwards. Not to compare, and just using as an illustration, if I’m looking for a Shul I will first filter by reform, conservative, and orthodox before enquiring how charitable or neighborly the congregants are......

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #217 on: January 30, 2018, 10:53:38 AM »
who gave you the right to judge someone?
No one. I don't think judging someone needs a right to be given. (I know that from text you can't tell my emotions, but I'm not trying to be a smart alec, just giving my honest feelings about the matter.)
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Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #218 on: January 30, 2018, 11:03:54 AM »
Because it’s an easy way to feel superior if the woman in your household dress according to higher standards. If we focused on the areas we may fall short.

That’s diengenuous. Would you attend a lewd party so long as the attendees kept the other 612? Obviously there are some things that are dealbreakers for some people to be in that environment despite the fact that the people in question may be better people in general. It’s not a judgement of the attendees, it is an understanding of how the environment influences a person, and visual aspects can  have a far greater impact than other influences. Don’t trust me, ask any marketing/ ad executive. Visual outreach to consumers is a multi trillion dollar business. Next Sunday will be all about the visuals...

Offline Yammer

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #219 on: January 30, 2018, 11:08:00 AM »
Off topic/popcorn/can of worms/why am i doing this../because i can't help myself:
Why are frum men so concerned with what women wear? Why are you google image searching appearance vs finding out if attendees are respectful to the people around them, do the attendees speak loshon hora? But no, yet again it's focused on what the attendees are wearing and ignoring the other 612 criteria of what makes someone frum.
Because it’s an easy way to feel superior if the woman in your household dress according to higher standards. If we focused on the areas we may fall short.
Sure ask the #metoo movement..