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Author Topic: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread  (Read 196201 times)

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #240 on: January 30, 2018, 07:37:27 PM »
reason 51 why I avoid jews. A friend of mine, big baal tzedaka MO guy was not invited to a fundraiser because his wife dresses immodestly.

This mentality and those that perpetuate it will be gone in 15 years
i strongly hope that you are wrong . yiddishkeit only exists because we hold true to our mesorah . if someones wife dresses immodestly and we honor that person that shows that we vale his money more than our torah. i was brought up to sacrifice for what i believe in.

i apologize for being blunt but as you said yourself you were turned off from frumkeit when you were younger ... it seems like you still werent turned back on in a hashkafically correct way
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 07:41:38 PM by gingyguy »
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline farmbochur

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #241 on: January 30, 2018, 07:38:13 PM »
That is a constant refrain throughout the past 3k years of history.
והקב"ה מצילנו מידם...
Risk is opportunity

Offline Dan

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #242 on: January 30, 2018, 07:45:51 PM »
i strongly hope that you are wrong . yiddishkeit only exists because we hold true to our mesorah . if someones wife dresses immodestly and we honor that person that shows that we vale his money more than our torah. i was brought up to sacrifice for what i believe in.

i apologize for being blunt but as you said yourself you were turned off from frumkeit when you were younger ... it seems like you still werent turned back on in a hashkafically correct way
Yeshivas that strongly advocate against going to college don't seem to have a problem honoring college educated alumni. Are they valuing this money more than their hashkafa?
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Offline yakov116

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #243 on: January 30, 2018, 07:53:06 PM »
Yeshivas that strongly advocate against going to college don't seem to have a problem honoring college educated alumni. Are they valuing this money more than their hashkafa?
Unfortunately
Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Offline gingyguy

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #244 on: January 30, 2018, 07:54:58 PM »
Yeshivas that strongly advocate against going to college don't seem to have a problem honoring college educated alumni. Are they valuing this money more than their hashkafa?
possibly. i can tell you that the yeshiva that i went to wouldnt  honor such a person. along the lines of practice what you preach. the alternative is the hypocrisy called do as i say and not as i do which is definitely poor chinuch.
if you are honoring college educated people than dont preach aginst it
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Offline gingyguy

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #245 on: January 30, 2018, 07:57:15 PM »
absolutelypossibly. i can tell you that the yeshiva that i went to wouldnt  honor such a person if they had a strong opinion on college (which they dont) when they say something it comes from a deep rooted belief, along the lines of practice what you preach.
the alternative is the hypocrisy called do as i say and not as i do which is definitely poor chinuch.
if you are honoring college educated people than dont preach aginst it
change of thought
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Offline Sport

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #246 on: January 30, 2018, 07:57:39 PM »
i strongly hope that you are wrong . yiddishkeit only exists because we hold true to our mesorah . if someones wife dresses immodestly and we honor that person that shows that we vale his money more than our torah. i was brought up to sacrifice for what i believe in.

i apologize for being blunt but as you said yourself you were turned off from frumkeit when you were younger ... it seems like you still werent turned back on in a hashkafically correct way
Who said anything about honoring that person, sounded like they didn't invite him to the fundraiser altogether.

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #247 on: January 30, 2018, 11:10:29 PM »
Yeshivas that strongly advocate against going to college don't seem to have a problem honoring college educated alumni. Are they valuing this money more than their hashkafa?
Edited:
I’m not sure honoring someone who does not yet dress modestly is such an issue. Perhaps they are a special person and relative to their upbringing they are worthy of being honored. It is their attendance and the problem with the environment that would create that is more of a problem.

Even if you would make the case that honoring an immodestly seeded person is in of itself a problem, I’m not sure that college is a valid analogy. The yeshivas may advocate against going to college because of the risk of the degenerate atmosphere negatively impacting even a small percentage of their students. (The risk is real-I attended Brooklyn College as a Talmid of one of the mainstream yeshivos and saw several fellow yeshiva students who were negatively impacted during their time there- and BC was a relatively ok atmosphere at the time as far as colleges go. A student who ignores the yeshiva, goes to college, and graduates with his yeshiva hashkafos intact, as the majority do, is still worthy of being honored.

Suppose the yeshiva prohibited extreme rock climbing during bein hazmanim due to the danger. Suppose a couple of students had actually lost their lives rock climbing in previous years. Does this mean that a student who disregarded the rule, went, and survived should forever be banned from receiving an honor at the yeshiva dinner?

Contrast this with a yeshiva honoring someone who is now going against the yeshivas hashkafa and by attending would create an environment that the yeshiva regularly advocates that one should not be present in if one can help it. That would be hypocritical. An accurate analogy would be a yeshiva giving a platform to a wealthy speaker  who will espouse ideas that are antithetical to the yeshivas values. That would be hypocritical indeed.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 11:16:24 PM by eyj »

Offline Dan

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #248 on: January 30, 2018, 11:14:45 PM »
I’m not sure that’s a valid analogy. The yeshivas may advocate against going to college because of the risk of the degenerate atmosphere negatively impacting even a small percentage of their students. (The risk is real-I attended Brooklyn College as a Talmid of one of the mainstream yeshivos and saw several fellow yeshiva students who were negatively impacted during their time there- and BC was a relatively ok atmosphere at the time as far as colleges go. A student who ignores the yeshiva, goes to college, and graduates with his yeshiva hashkafos intact, as the majority do, is still worthy of being honored.

Suppose the yeshiva prohibited extreme rock climbing during bein hazmanim due to the danger. Suppose a couple of students had actually lost their lives rock climbing in previous years. Does this mean that a student who disregarded the rule, went, and survived should forever be banned from receiving an honor at the yeshiva dinner?

Contrast this with a yeshiva honoring someone who is now going against the yeshivas hashkafa and by attending would create an environment that the yeshiva regularly advocates that one should not be present in if one can help it. That would be hypocritical. An accurate analogy would be a yeshiva giving a platform to a wealthy speaker  who will espouse ideas that are antithetical to the yeshivas values. That would be hypocritical indeed.
Take a step back.
What will the current yeshiva students think when a college educated gvir is being honored? If the yeshiva's hashkafa is anti-collage, do you not think they'll mock the contradiction? Will they not be influenced by the gvir who went to the same yeshiva, didn't listen to the anti-college speeches, and made it in life until the point that the yeshiva is now honoring him?
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #249 on: January 30, 2018, 11:19:02 PM »
Take a step back.
What will the current yeshiva students think when a college educated gvir is being honored? If the yeshiva's hashkafa is anti-collage, do you not think they'll mock the contradiction? Will they not be influenced by the gvir who went to the same yeshiva, didn't listen to the anti-college speeches, and made it in life until the point that the yeshiva is now honoring him?
IMO what's missing is not that they honor the guy, he gave the money, supported the place. What is missing is the respect for those who do go the way they want, and somehow portray them as the ideal alumnus.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #250 on: January 30, 2018, 11:21:23 PM »
Take a step back.
What will the current yeshiva students think when a college educated gvir is being honored? If the yeshiva's hashkafa is anti-collage, do you not think they'll mock the contradiction? Will they not be influenced by the gvir who went to the same yeshiva, didn't listen to the anti-college speeches, and made it in life until the point that the yeshiva is now honoring him?

That’s a valid point. I could see a yeshiva making that call but I don’t think that it’s that clear cut. The very fact that a yeshiva honors a working guy who left yeshiva when his colleagues spent years in kollel could also be construed as sending a message that the former path will get you honored. I would think that as long as the guys hashkafos are currently aligned with the yeshiva, people are mature enough to realize that the honor bestowed is not an endorsement of his path in life being the preferred one.

Where would you draw the line. Would you honor only someone who learned in kollel for many years if this is what that particular yeshiva advocates?

Offline Dan

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #251 on: January 30, 2018, 11:22:59 PM »
That’s a valid point. I could see a yeshiva making that call but I don’t think that it’s that clear cut. The very fact that a yeshiva honors a working guy who left yeshiva when his colleagues spent years in kollel could also be construed as sending a message that the former path will get you honored. I would think that as long as the guys hashkafos are currently aligned with the yeshiva, people are mature enough to realize that the honor bestowed is not an endorsement of his path in life being the preferred one.
Do you think that the college educated gvir who made it in life, now is having a change of heart and wishes he didn't do that because he's being honored?

LOL
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Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #252 on: January 30, 2018, 11:25:17 PM »
Do you think that the college educated gvir who made it in life, now is having a change of heart and wishes he didn't do that because he's being honored?

LOL

Don’t understand your question. Can you clarify?

Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #253 on: January 30, 2018, 11:30:54 PM »
Take a step back.
What will the current yeshiva students think when a college educated gvir is being honored? If the yeshiva's hashkafa is anti-collage, do you not think they'll mock the contradiction? Will they not be influenced by the gvir who went to the same yeshiva, didn't listen to the anti-college speeches, and made it in life until the point that the yeshiva is now honoring him?
Nah, the boys in yeshiva call him a grubbe balabus.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #254 on: January 30, 2018, 11:32:59 PM »
Nah, the boys in yeshiva call him a grubbe balabus.
Sure, most of them will. Many of them while they're mocking their own yeshiva for giving kavod to the guy.
But then there's the few who will say, maybe he chose the right path after all.

Was it all worthwhile for the yeshiva?
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #255 on: January 30, 2018, 11:38:43 PM »
Sure, most of them will. Many of them while they're mocking their own yeshiva for giving kavod to the guy.
But then there's the few who will say, maybe he chose the right path after all.

Was it all worthwhile for the yeshiva?
If the yeshiva has no money to run you get nowhere, so to answer the question, yes.
Is their negative side effects too? Yes
Would you have a problem, with the fact that the Roshei Yeshiva take off to fundraise, does that also teach what they are trying to fight?
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline Dan

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #256 on: January 30, 2018, 11:41:24 PM »
If the yeshiva has no money to run you get nowhere, so to answer the question, yes.
So where do you draw the line? How much hypocrisy is OK?

Would you have a problem, with the fact that the Roshei Yeshiva take off to fundraise, does that also teach what they are trying to fight?
Im ain kemach ain torah.
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Offline eyj

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #257 on: January 30, 2018, 11:44:09 PM »
Sure, most of them will. Many of them while they're mocking their own yeshiva for giving kavod to the guy.
But then there's the few who will say, maybe he chose the right path after all.

Was it all worthwhile for the yeshiva?

That is a more nuanced question and I’m not sure there’s only one answer. You can be super selective in who you will accept funding from, so as not to risk influencing guys, but that may impact the resources you will have available to help those same students. What if that funding represents a smaller student/ teacher ratio, or a resource room/  guidance counselor that can address problems before they get out of control? You would be fighting to win the battle yet potentially lose the war.

The leaders of Volozhin closed down their yeshiva rather than teach secular studies. That was what they felt was the correct answer for that yeshiva. Today the answer is clearly different. Neither answer was right or wrong. It required careful cost/ benefit calculation in each instance.

There ought to be a special blessing to thank g-d for not being a school administrator.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 11:50:41 PM by eyj »

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #258 on: January 30, 2018, 11:46:34 PM »
So where do you draw the line? How much hypocrisy is OK?
Im ain kemach ain torah.
That's part of the Roshei Yeshivas job, they have to be able to make these decisions.
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Offline henche

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Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #259 on: January 30, 2018, 11:47:27 PM »
@Dan has your yeshiva not honored you yet?  Is that what this is abt?