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Author Topic: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread  (Read 205462 times)

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1100 on: April 27, 2023, 11:01:49 AM »
Wow wouldn't they get many more customers if they did?
I think we can assume that most people going to Pesach programs can afford the luxury, i.e have the cash. And even if someone else is paying for it, the one paying also usually has the cash.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1101 on: April 27, 2023, 11:05:35 AM »
I think we can assume that most people going to Pesach programs can afford the luxury, i.e have the cash. And even if someone else is paying for it, the one paying also usually has the cash.
Perhaps that is your assumption, but that is not necessarily the case. Plus, there are potential benefits paying by credit card (this is DDF after all ;) ).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 11:16:25 AM by JMHO »

Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1102 on: April 27, 2023, 11:08:41 AM »
I think we can assume that most people going to Pesach programs can afford the luxury, i.e have the cash. And even if someone else is paying for it, the one paying also usually has the cash.
Halevai
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Offline Chief Rabbi of New York

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1103 on: April 27, 2023, 11:12:39 AM »
I think we can assume that most people going to Pesach programs can afford the luxury, i.e have the cash. And even if someone else is paying for it, the one paying also usually has the cash.

MG or HG ? What’s your real name ?
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Offline Yehudaa

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1104 on: April 27, 2023, 11:52:58 AM »
I think we can assume that most people going to Pesach programs can afford the luxury, i.e have the cash.
-1

I don't know much about HG's programs, but there are programs that cater more to people who need to go away for pesach, rather than those who want to. There are elderly people who can't make pesach and have no kids to go to, single parents who don't have the ability to make pesach, older singles who don't want to stay home and eat every seudah at a different person's house, families with various disabilities, etc. You can go to these programs and easily spot the tzaros of half the people there.

Based on the hotel that HG had booked, I suspect much of his clientele were in this category. Many people who can afford a luxury vacation would never consider staying at an old, cheap hotel.

Offline Chief Rabbi of New York

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1105 on: April 27, 2023, 12:09:14 PM »
-1

I don't know much about HG's programs, but there are programs that cater more to people who need to go away for pesach, rather than those who want to. There are elderly people who can't make pesach and have no kids to go to, single parents who don't have the ability to make pesach, older singles who don't want to stay home and eat every seudah at a different person's house, families with various disabilities, etc. You can go to these programs and easily spot the tzaros of half the people there.

Based on the hotel that HG had booked, I suspect much of his clientele were in this category. Many people who can afford a luxury vacation would never consider staying at an old, cheap hotel.

Sounds true
But his pricing was more towards the nicer ones ?
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Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1106 on: April 27, 2023, 12:55:48 PM »
-1

I don't know much about HG's programs, but there are programs that cater more to people who need to go away for pesach, rather than those who want to. There are elderly people who can't make pesach and have no kids to go to, single parents who don't have the ability to make pesach, older singles who don't want to stay home and eat every seudah at a different person's house, families with various disabilities, etc. You can go to these programs and easily spot the tzaros of half the people there.

Based on the hotel that HG had booked, I suspect much of his clientele were in this category. Many people who can afford a luxury vacation would never consider staying at an old, cheap hotel.
We are not discussing HG anymore. We are discussing why Pesach programs don't accept cc's. Most pp's are not in dinky little hotels. Even old/single/disabled people very often have a sponsor.

Offline JMHO

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1107 on: April 27, 2023, 01:00:09 PM »
We are not discussing HG anymore. We are discussing why Pesach programs don't accept cc's. Most pp's are not in dinky little hotels. Even old/single/disabled people very often have a sponsor.
Ah, M/HG has spoken! Shoin!

Offline Chief Rabbi of New York

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1108 on: April 27, 2023, 01:08:15 PM »
Ah, M/HG has spoken! Shoin!

@Moshe Green did the program in South Africa accept credit card ?
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Offline daybyday

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1109 on: April 27, 2023, 01:19:31 PM »
We are not discussing HG anymore. We are discussing why Pesach programs don't accept cc's. Most pp's are not in dinky little hotels. Even old/single/disabled people very often have a sponsor.
From someone I know who owns a very successful program for many years. He absolutely doesn't accept credit cards because he had people stay an entire Pesach and then dispute the entire charge. Its a high-end program so its a lot of $$$.
Yes, sadly people like that do exist.

Offline AMH

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1110 on: April 27, 2023, 01:24:57 PM »
Does anyone know if he did the lie detector test ?

Effectiveness

Although there is some debate in the scientific community regarding the efficacy of polygraphs, assessments of polygraphy by scientific and government bodies generally suggest that polygraphs are inaccurate, may be defeated by countermeasures, and are an imperfect or invalid means of assessing truthfulness.[10][11][12] Despite claims that polygraph tests are between 80% to 90% accurate by advocates,[20][21] the National Research Council has found no evidence of effectiveness.[11][22] In particular, studies have indicated that the relevant–irrelevant questioning technique is not ideal, as many innocent subjects exert a heightened physiological reaction to the crime-relevant questions.[14] The American Psychological Association states "Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies."[5]

In 2002, a review by the National Research Council found that, in populations "untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection". The review also warns against generalization from these findings to justify the use of polygraphs—"polygraph accuracy for screening purposes is almost certainly lower than what can be achieved by specific-incident polygraph tests in the field"—and notes some examinees may be able to take countermeasures to produce deceptive results.[23]

In the 1998 US Supreme Court case United States v. Scheffer, the majority stated that "There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable [...] Unlike other expert witnesses who testify about factual matters outside the jurors' knowledge, such as the analysis of fingerprints, ballistics, or DNA found at a crime scene, a polygraph expert can supply the jury only with another opinion."[24] The Supreme Court summarized their findings by stating that the use of polygraph was "little better than could be obtained by the toss of a coin."[24] In 2005, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals stated that "polygraphy did not enjoy general acceptance from the scientific community".[25] In 2001, William Iacono, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of Minnesota, concluded:
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Offline TimT

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1111 on: April 27, 2023, 01:26:22 PM »
From someone I know who owns a very successful program for many years. He absolutely doesn't accept credit cards because he had people stay an entire Pesach and then dispute the entire charge. Its a high-end program so its a lot of $$$.
Yes, sadly people like that do exist.
Banks just refund that kind of money no-questions-asked ?

Offline daybyday

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1112 on: April 27, 2023, 01:35:46 PM »
Banks just refund that kind of money no-questions-asked ?
I don't know the specifics but he's been burnt often enough that he has a hard rule no credit cards. From my personal experience, Amex will almost always give the customer the benefit of the doubt.

Offline moko

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1113 on: April 27, 2023, 01:44:34 PM »

Offline Dave321

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1114 on: April 27, 2023, 07:20:48 PM »
 Ok. Having been to many programs I'll say this.

Programs need to learn to say NO. If you can handle 1000 ppl then who gives you the right to take 2000 or more? You are ruining everyone else so you can make as much money as possible. Then the program owners get mad when they get a bad review. Just stick with what you can handle.

Offline Chief Rabbi of New York

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1115 on: April 27, 2023, 07:24:45 PM »
Ok. Having been to many programs I'll say this.

Programs need to learn to say NO. If you can handle 1000 ppl then who gives you the right to take 2000 or more? You are ruining everyone else so you can make as much money as possible. Then the program owners get mad when they get a bad review. Just stick with what you can handle.

I believe HG didn’t have enough people, instead of too many
It’s been quiet about that, does that mean people gave up ? Or when is the 4th episode to the ZB show ?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1116 on: April 27, 2023, 07:29:56 PM »
Ok. Having been to many programs I'll say this.

Programs need to learn to say NO. If you can handle 1000 ppl then who gives you the right to take 2000 or more? You are ruining everyone else so you can make as much money as possible. Then the program owners get mad when they get a bad review. Just stick with what you can handle.

This is also a kashrus issue. Maybe @moko can chime in on what is a reasonable ratio of Mashgichim to guests.

Also, possibly, many disappointments could be avoided if people would first call the Hashgochos before any other checking out of programs. I have a feeling that if anyone that booked with HG would have first called the Hashgocha, we might have not been discussing this fiasco now.
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Offline moko

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1117 on: April 27, 2023, 08:19:39 PM »
This is also a kashrus issue. Maybe @moko can chime in on what is a reasonable ratio of Mashgichim to guests.

Also, possibly, many disappointments could be avoided if people would first call the Hashgochos before any other checking out of programs. I have a feeling that if anyone that booked with HG would have first called the Hashgocha, we might have not been discussing this fiasco now.
there's no direct correlation between the amount of guests and how many mashgichim are required.
There's indirect.
The amount of mashgichim required is heavily based on how many areas need supervision and for how many hours.
The amount of guests may affect that. For instance, 2000 guests will require more breakfast mad buffet stations than 600.
If you have breakfast areas spread out over a large area, you'll need more mashgichim.
You start by identifying how many areas need a Mashgiach, how many hours in each area, add it all up and divide by how many hours you want them to work per day (hopefully not more than 8)+ if bedikas toilaim is required a Mashgiach shouldnt do more than 4 hours straight then add one more for when things go wrong

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1118 on: April 27, 2023, 08:53:52 PM »
there's no direct correlation between the amount of guests and how many mashgichim are required.
There's indirect.
The amount of mashgichim required is heavily based on how many areas need supervision and for how many hours.
The amount of guests may affect that. For instance, 2000 guests will require more breakfast mad buffet stations than 600.
If you have breakfast areas spread out over a large area, you'll need more mashgichim.
You start by identifying how many areas need a Mashgiach, how many hours in each area, add it all up and divide by how many hours you want them to work per day (hopefully not more than 8)+ if bedikas toilaim is required a Mashgiach shouldnt do more than 4 hours straight then add one more for when things go wrong
Obviously it's indirect, but there's definitely a correlation as you point out.

What percentage of programs do it right?
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Offline moko

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Re: Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread
« Reply #1119 on: April 27, 2023, 09:04:30 PM »
Obviously it's indirect, but there's definitely a correlation as you point out.

What percentage of programs do it right?
I honestly have no idea. Definitely several but anecdotally (for what it's worth) it seems like a very low percentage.
I'm jaded, so not much out there shocks me.
Based on @Something Fishy posts, he'd be shocked at what goes on.
Just reading some of what was reposted here from various online groups/forums/chats complaining about quality and outline the venue structure, there's no way Kashrus was done remotely properly. Let's put it simply....it's a good thing that family missed their flight. At least they are kosher for the first days.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 09:07:47 PM by moko »