Author Topic: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?  (Read 18384 times)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2018, 08:44:35 AM »
Yayn stam is from the tosefites
Let's do it this way. Can you post a source?

Offline gingyguy

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2018, 08:58:57 AM »
I have many questions about this. Can we discuss them over a beer?
i already opened mine. feel free to open yours
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2018, 09:03:38 AM »
i already opened mine. feel free to open yours
Didn't even have breakfast yet. Need to text DW for a BLT.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline gingyguy

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2018, 09:18:36 AM »
Didn't even have breakfast yet. Need to text DW for a BLT.
you mean you can be active here without breakfast ?!
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2018, 09:18:50 AM »
Didn't even have breakfast yet. Need to text DW for a BLT.
TRAIF!!!!!!
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2018, 09:20:44 AM »
TRAIF!!!!!!
That's why it tastes so good!!!
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline gingyguy

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #126 on: February 04, 2018, 09:21:38 AM »
That's why it tastes so good!!!
im pretty sure u still need that beer
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #127 on: February 04, 2018, 09:22:51 AM »
im pretty sure u still need that beer
If I start this early I will miss the game.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #128 on: February 04, 2018, 09:49:57 AM »
Let's do it this way. Can you post a source?
Of course he can't. It's absolute hog wash.
Gezeiras Stam yeynom is one of the 18 gezeiros of chazal.

This conversation is silly because it's based on utter ignorance of the subject matter.

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #129 on: February 04, 2018, 10:26:18 AM »
Of course it is.

There maybe differences and issues with whether and how much it applies  in a time when there is no chashas nesech, but it is totally incorrect and wrong to declare "yayin Stam a gezeira of the tosafists".

Nice of you to confuse yayin nesech and yayin stam

Online Yehuda57

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #130 on: February 04, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
I guess many didnít get the memo.
Not every thread is about the darn memo.

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #131 on: February 04, 2018, 10:39:12 AM »
Nice of you to confuse yayin nesech and yayin stam

i'm happy to find you sources, Rabbi Hayim Soloveitchik writes on it extensively.  The Ban on Stam Yaynam is older, Rashi for example write in a letter to his son in law Rav Meir that there is no difference in prohibition between yayin nesech and yayin stam and that people have become lax ind it as the gentiles no longer libate the wine.

However, the ban as we know it, is from the tosefites. i.e. that gentiles cannot touch the wine rather than make the wine. Then theres a whole debate regarding who can crush the grapes.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #132 on: February 04, 2018, 11:02:57 AM »
Nice of you to confuse yayin nesech and yayin stam
No. You are the one confused.

Please define Stam yayin?

I'll help you out. It is yayin that is owned or made by a non jew.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #133 on: February 04, 2018, 11:04:09 AM »
i'm happy to find you sources, Rabbi Hayim Soloveitchik writes on it extensively.  The Ban on Stam Yaynam is older, Rashi for example write in a letter to his son in law Rav Meir that there is no difference in prohibition between yayin nesech and yayin stam and that people have become lax ind it as the gentiles no longer libate the wine.

However, the ban as we know it, is from the tosefites. i.e. that gentiles cannot touch the wine rather than make the wine. Then theres a whole debate regarding who can crush the grapes.
R haim solovetchik? Dude,this is a gezeira of chazal. It's not something that requires extensive googling.

It's all over shas.


You are confusing halochos of non Jews touching our wine, and their wine.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #134 on: February 04, 2018, 11:21:12 AM »
R haim solovetchik? Dude,this is a gezeira of chazal. It's not something that requires extensive googling.

It's all over shas.


You are confusing halochos of non Jews touching our wine, and their wine.
א''ר אסי א''ר יוחנן משום ר' יהודה בן בתירא שלשה יינות הן יין נסך אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאה חמורה בכזית סתם יינם אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאת משקין ברביעית המפקיד יינו אצל עובד כוכבים אסור בשתיה ומותר בהנאה 

Offline skyguy918

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2018, 11:25:43 AM »
i'm happy to find you sources, Rabbi Hayim Soloveitchik writes on it extensively.  The Ban on Stam Yaynam is older, Rashi for example write in a letter to his son in law Rav Meir that there is no difference in prohibition between yayin nesech and yayin stam and that people have become lax ind it as the gentiles no longer libate the wine.
A source is something I can look up. A sefer or book I can look up, preferably with a page number or the like. In case you - or anyone else here is interested - there's a program run by BMG called Shivti for baalei batim to learn sugyos in depth. There are chaburos/shiurim all over (including Aventura and Miami Beach) and they each learn the sugya from a booklet that's prepared and sent out to everyone. This year they're going through all the maachalei akum sugyos, and they just started stam yaynum this week - you can download the booklet here, though it's a bit of a pain since they make you sign up and 'check out' to get the free download. I believe next week the focus is on maga akum.
However, the ban as we know it, is from the tosefites. i.e. that gentiles cannot touch the wine rather than make the wine. Then theres a whole debate regarding who can crush the grapes.
Now we're getting somewhere. You should really be more specific. The issur of stam yaynum is in fact a mishna in avodah zara. The discussion of maga akum is obviously less straightforward. But to be clear, that doesn't make it an invention of the baalei hatosfos. There are several shitos as to how to understand the issue of stam yaynum, which lead to different opinions regarding maga akum. But each opinion holds that their shita was intended by the mishna and gemara. ETA: And all the poskim say maga akum is assur, including the Rambam.

Offline moko

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2018, 11:26:08 AM »
א''ר אסי א''ר יוחנן משום ר' יהודה בן בתירא שלשה יינות הן יין נסך אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאה חמורה בכזית סתם יינם אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאת משקין ברביעית המפקיד יינו אצל עובד כוכבים אסור בשתיה ומותר בהנאה
please don't confuse him with facts. Ch'v that he should have actually started with the actual sources instead of some essay.

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2018, 11:27:13 AM »
א''ר אסי א''ר יוחנן משום ר' יהודה בן בתירא שלשה יינות הן יין נסך אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאה חמורה בכזית סתם יינם אסור בהנאה ומטמא טומאת משקין ברביעית המפקיד יינו אצל עובד כוכבים אסור בשתיה ומותר בהנאה

What do you define as stam yaynam? wine made by a goy that was not an akum?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2018, 11:30:28 AM »
Not every thread is about the darn memo.
Wrong memo.
I wasn't even thinking about that when I posted it.  :)
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2018, 11:33:43 AM »
My initial discussion here of yayin stam prohibition evolves around the prohibition of a gentile touching or pouring to be exact, of non mevushal wine.