Author Topic: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?  (Read 18387 times)

Online aygart

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #140 on: February 04, 2018, 11:42:29 AM »
Wrong memo.
I wasn't even thinking about that when I posted it.  :)
I was going to answer to you that they got the memo but the people who didn't like it's content were saying that it is a nothingburger, and also puts the world at risk but didn't want to bring that in here. Now that it already was....
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #141 on: February 04, 2018, 11:44:35 AM »
What do you define as stam yaynam? wine made by a goy that was not an akum?
Yes

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #142 on: February 04, 2018, 11:49:54 AM »
My initial discussion here of yayin stam prohibition evolves around the prohibition of a gentile touching or pouring to be exact, of non mevushal wine.
Ok, well that is not Stam yeynom. (Yeynom means THEIR wine.)

BTW, I believe you asked somewhere in the thread about why mevushal is better? The answer that the reshonim give, is that the gezeira of Stam yeynom was constructed based on the parameters of chashas nesech, though the main reason was because of intermarriage. (And they are not menasech mevushal + it is not used on our mizbeach)

Chazal did this for various reasons. Chief amongst them is that they wanted to establish the gezeira on a higher level of prohibition, similar to yayin nesech. So it had to match the parameters.

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #143 on: February 04, 2018, 11:54:19 AM »
yeinom mishum bnoseihem
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2018, 12:41:33 PM »
Based on what I learned today (the aforementioned Shivti booklet), no one seems to hold that maga akum is permitted to drink nowadays. There is a question about whether it's assur b'hanaa, which is based in the different shitos of how to understand the whole issur of stam yaynum.

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2018, 01:36:25 PM »
Ok, well that is not Stam yeynom. (Yeynom means THEIR wine.)

BTW, I believe you asked somewhere in the thread about why mevushal is better? The answer that the reshonim give, is that the gezeira of Stam yeynom was constructed based on the parameters of chashas nesech, though the main reason was because of intermarriage. (And they are not menasech mevushal + it is not used on our mizbeach)

Chazal did this for various reasons. Chief amongst them is that they wanted to establish the gezeira on a higher level of prohibition, similar to yayin nesech. So it had to match the parameters.

Great, glad we can discuss this without implying I have no respect for chazal.

If mevushal makes it ok because its unfit, it doesnt answer "mishum benoisahem" And we largely argue that nesech is no longer an issue,  (different debate "is christianity considered avoda zara?")

My issue is that the halachot of nesech, were applied to stam. The issue at heart here is, why cant a waiter pour non mevushal wine ? clearly if it was an issue of benoisahem, it would deem mevushal wine foridden too.

I have not been turned off from marrying a non jew because they dared to serve me mevushal wine.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »


Great, glad we can discuss this without implying I have no respect for chazal.

*If mevushal makes it ok because its unfit, it doesnt answer "mishum benoisahem"* And we largely argue that nesech is no longer an issue,  (different debate "is christianity considered avoda zara?")

My issue is that the halachot of nesech, were applied to stam. The issue at heart here is, why cant a waiter pour non mevushal wine ? clearly if it was an issue of benoisahem, it would deem mevushal wine foridden too.

I have not been turned off from marrying a non jew because they dared to serve me mevushal wine.
I precisely addressed this valid question. The reshonim ask it and I basically tried to write the popular answer.