Author Topic: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?  (Read 18521 times)

Offline moko

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2018, 02:23:50 PM »
that shruya (gebrochts) is a modern problem (Alter Rebbe / Ba'al Hatanya notibaly)

Aye so lets talk Mesorah, eat  soft matzas! Do shechita with nikur etc..
and the Tur and possibly the Rava (regarding matza meal- see R' Shlomo Kluger in Shu"a hilchos pesach -will post exact se'if after shabbos) but don't let the facts stand in your way


Offline moko

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2018, 02:25:40 PM »


Personally, i'd like to see stam yaynam be repealed.
I hear chicken Parmesan is quite good....
Do you eat basar of b'chalav in the galil?

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2018, 02:30:51 PM »
and im not crazy about kashrut, I check for bugs in that I look at items and if I dont see a bug, I eat it.
And here is where all your credibility - assuming you have any left at this point - goes right out the window.
No wonder your spew such garbage, your Lev is mitumtam.
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2018, 02:39:30 PM »
So, for the record, my chavrusa is a noted Rav and Dayan and deep thinker.
Care to share his - or her - name ?
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2018, 02:58:26 PM »
and the Tur and possibly the Rava (regarding matza meal- see R' Shlomo Kluger in Shu"a hilchos pesach -will post exact se'if after shabbos) but don't let the facts stand in your way

Its a whole scholarly article, noticeably that shruya was only an issue when matzos became hard and thin. Regarding matza meal was different, its all here

http://halachicadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Journal-of-contemporary-socienty-and-halacha-soft-matzah.pdf

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2018, 03:03:53 PM »
I hear chicken Parmesan is quite good....
Do you eat basar of b'chalav in the galil?

possibly the dumbest thing I ever heard... i'll tell you this, my yetzer hara is bigger than your yetzer hara.  I may advocate repealing stam yaynam but I only drink kosher wine.

https://www.winesf.com/2015-chateau-leoville-poyferre-saint-julien-pre-arrival $75 trayf / 150+ kosher

Discussing a tosefite ruling that was based on social issues and comparing with a lo sase is heretical imho

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2018, 03:08:42 PM »
And here is where all your credibility - assuming you have any left at this point - goes right out the window.
No wonder your spew such garbage, your Lev is mitumtam.

Oh, burn me!!


Quote
The Rashba says you wash them and check them and any bug visible is prohibited but anything not visible is not prohibited. Reb Moshe Feinstein’s position was essentially the same as the Rashba’s. When this bug insanity started in Lakewood in 1982, Reb Moshe would have nothing to do with it.

You can argue all you want, cite all the sources youd like, i'll counter you.

Offline cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2018, 03:16:20 PM »
I cant say any thing on this thread without being accused of bragging. So, for the record, my chavrusa is a noted Rav and Dayan and deep thinker. My ideas are not shots in the dark. Nor are they unfounded, stam yaynam was not initially accepted in sefard, in italy it was noted (I cant remember who, might have been rav ovadia bartenura) that in one city they werent strict with yayn stam but they were strict with women going to the mikva and in another city it was the exact opposite.

Your co-relation is really silly, that would be akin to saying, we should give every one polio vaccinations.

Halacha is not about blind obedience, there are a few reasons for stam yaynam but by and large its illogical.

read up on the history of takanot

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14204-takkanah

Takanat SHUM

Do you talk in shull?!?!

I guess all the frumme in vegas and atlantic city are heretics... me? I just want wine and I whine

No, what I was saying was that you as a layman, making the call on Stam Yayin and other gezeiros of Chazal is not much better than my kid dismissing the doctors treatment. Your chavrusah may be a noted Dayan but if he is really the source of these ideas he would appear to be outside of normative orthodox practice. There were great Rabbis at the turn of the last century who tried to allow chalitza via messenger and using the bath in the home as a Mikva, and they had cogent arguments that they presented but their opinions were rejected by the overwhelming majority of the leaders of their generation.

There are hundreds of responsa written dealing with the longevity of gezeiros and takanos- and there are many many criteria- who established them, how widespread was there adoption, etc. For you to wake up in 2017 and decide that you know better than thousands of Torah leaders spanning many centuries ( there were strong reasons to permit wine in the time and place of the beis yosef as well) is presumptuous.

Now might be a good time for you to join the daf hayomi which is learning avoda zara and is just starting to go through yayin and a host of other gezeiros of Chazal and learn the rishonim and achronim on those sugyos to get an idea of how chazal formulated their gezeiros from authentic sources....

Offline Sport

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2018, 03:18:23 PM »


possibly the dumbest thing I ever heard... i'll tell you this, my yetzer hara is bigger than your yetzer hara.
Inconceivable!


Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2018, 03:22:57 PM »
Inconceivable!

Plus im a bigger baal gayvah than you!

Offline moko

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
possibly the dumbest thing I ever heard... i'll tell you this, my yetzer hara is bigger than your yetzer hara.  I may advocate repealing stam yaynam but I only drink kosher wine.

https://www.winesf.com/2015-chateau-leoville-poyferre-saint-julien-pre-arrival $75 trayf / 150+ kosher

Discussing a tosefite ruling that was based on social issues and comparing with a lo sase is heretical imho
last o checked basar of b'chalav was implemented by the rabbis not god

Offline Sport

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2018, 03:29:13 PM »
Plus im a bigger baal gayvah than you!
That, I'll concede to you

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2018, 03:32:09 PM »
No, what I was saying was that you as a layman, making the call on Stam Yayin and other gezeiros of Chazal is not much better than my kid dismissing the doctors treatment. Your chavrusah may be a noted Dayan but if he is really the source of these ideas he would appear to be outside of normative orthodox practice. There were great Rabbis at the turn of the last century who tried to allow chalitza via messenger and using the bath in the home as a Mikva, and they had cogent arguments that they presented but their opinions were rejected by the overwhelming majority of the leaders of their generation.

There are hundreds of responsa written dealing with the longevity of gezeiros and takanos- and there are many many criteria- who established them, how widespread was there adoption, etc. For you to wake up in 2017 and decide that you know better than thousands of Torah leaders spanning many centuries ( there were strong reasons to permit wine in the time and place of the beis yosef as well) is presumptuous.

Now might be a good time for you to join the daf hayomi which is learning avoda zara and is just starting to go through yayin and a host of other gezeiros of Chazal and learn the rishonim and achronim on those sugyos to get an idea of how chazal formulated their gezeiros from authentic sources....


Stam yaynam pretty much took nesech and applied it throughout.

Inherently you should be able to buy wine from muslims if they had a winery.

Stam yaynam is illogical because, the prohibition was set to prevent intermarriage, yet I can and do drink with non jews, further if the wine is mevushal, they can handle it. If stam yaynam was the concern in terms of intermarriage, I should be prohibited to drink mevushal wine with a non jew.

Many poskim hold that a jew that is not shomer shabbat can handle the wine, in Israel and europe for example, many restaurants sell non mevushal wines, only in the USA is it a mishugas

These opinions are mine, not my chavrusas, they are stuff we discuss, i'm not saying he agrees or endorses my opinions but he doesnt call me a heretic.

Say what you want, but yayn stam makes no sense, i'm actually more likely to hook up with a non jewish woman at a beer brewery since we have no wineries here ;)

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2018, 03:35:34 PM »
last o checked basar of b'chalav was implemented by the rabbis not god

So are many aseh's and lavim. The torah doesnt define shabbat clearly. Im not a karaite *rolls eyes* These are all derived from the torah, moshe m'sinai etc..

Stam yaynam was a 12th century prohibition based on social realities.

Offline cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2018, 03:48:04 PM »



Many poskim hold that a jew that is not shomer shabbat can handle the wine, in Israel and europe for example, many restaurants sell non mevushal wines, only in the USA is it a mishugas



I believe that your “mishugas” is better known as the Rivash, teshuvos Harashba brought down by the beis yosef, as explained by the shach in nekudos hekessef, chassam sofer et al; all those medieval illogical Rabbis you so despise....


Offline cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2018, 04:47:57 PM »
Let’s see how the leaders of klal Yisroel related to this prohibition: The chochmas adam- another one of those fanatics...

Hmmm who should I trust with my olam habah the ch”a or Chevron. Tough one...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 04:59:00 PM by cmey »

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2018, 06:50:43 PM »
I believe that your “mishugas” is better known as the Rivash, teshuvos Harashba brought down by the beis yosef, as explained by the shach in nekudos hekessef, chassam sofer et al; all those medieval illogical Rabbis you so despise....

Refer to Dayan halpen of manchester as one

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2018, 06:53:51 PM »
Let’s see how the leaders of klal Yisroel related to this prohibition: The chochmas adam- another one of those fanatics...

Hmmm who should I trust with my olam habah the ch”a or Chevron. Tough one...

not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays

Offline ExGingi

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2018, 06:59:49 PM »
not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays
The reason Yomtov Sheini was implemented wasn't relevant many years prior to your perceived irrelevance of Stam Yeynam. However, full holiness of Yomtov exist on Yomtov Sheini in the places lucky enough to observe it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:33:56 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Let3

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2018, 07:47:41 PM »
not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays
I don’t see how you proved that it’s not relevant today.

Just how you decided that it was “illogical from the start” and how it should also apply to beer breweries today.

(Maybe if that were as common in those days it would have been included as well)...