Author Topic: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?  (Read 4514 times)

Offline moko

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
possibly the dumbest thing I ever heard... i'll tell you this, my yetzer hara is bigger than your yetzer hara.  I may advocate repealing stam yaynam but I only drink kosher wine.

https://www.winesf.com/2015-chateau-leoville-poyferre-saint-julien-pre-arrival $75 trayf / 150+ kosher

Discussing a tosefite ruling that was based on social issues and comparing with a lo sase is heretical imho
last o checked basar of b'chalav was implemented by the rabbis not god

Offline Sport

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2018, 03:29:13 PM »
Plus im a bigger baal gayvah than you!
That, I'll concede to you

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2018, 03:32:09 PM »
No, what I was saying was that you as a layman, making the call on Stam Yayin and other gezeiros of Chazal is not much better than my kid dismissing the doctors treatment. Your chavrusah may be a noted Dayan but if he is really the source of these ideas he would appear to be outside of normative orthodox practice. There were great Rabbis at the turn of the last century who tried to allow chalitza via messenger and using the bath in the home as a Mikva, and they had cogent arguments that they presented but their opinions were rejected by the overwhelming majority of the leaders of their generation.

There are hundreds of responsa written dealing with the longevity of gezeiros and takanos- and there are many many criteria- who established them, how widespread was there adoption, etc. For you to wake up in 2017 and decide that you know better than thousands of Torah leaders spanning many centuries ( there were strong reasons to permit wine in the time and place of the beis yosef as well) is presumptuous.

Now might be a good time for you to join the daf hayomi which is learning avoda zara and is just starting to go through yayin and a host of other gezeiros of Chazal and learn the rishonim and achronim on those sugyos to get an idea of how chazal formulated their gezeiros from authentic sources....


Stam yaynam pretty much took nesech and applied it throughout.

Inherently you should be able to buy wine from muslims if they had a winery.

Stam yaynam is illogical because, the prohibition was set to prevent intermarriage, yet I can and do drink with non jews, further if the wine is mevushal, they can handle it. If stam yaynam was the concern in terms of intermarriage, I should be prohibited to drink mevushal wine with a non jew.

Many poskim hold that a jew that is not shomer shabbat can handle the wine, in Israel and europe for example, many restaurants sell non mevushal wines, only in the USA is it a mishugas

These opinions are mine, not my chavrusas, they are stuff we discuss, i'm not saying he agrees or endorses my opinions but he doesnt call me a heretic.

Say what you want, but yayn stam makes no sense, i'm actually more likely to hook up with a non jewish woman at a beer brewery since we have no wineries here ;)

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2018, 03:35:34 PM »
last o checked basar of b'chalav was implemented by the rabbis not god

So are many aseh's and lavim. The torah doesnt define shabbat clearly. Im not a karaite *rolls eyes* These are all derived from the torah, moshe m'sinai etc..

Stam yaynam was a 12th century prohibition based on social realities.

Online cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2018, 03:48:04 PM »



Many poskim hold that a jew that is not shomer shabbat can handle the wine, in Israel and europe for example, many restaurants sell non mevushal wines, only in the USA is it a mishugas



I believe that your “mishugas” is better known as the Rivash, teshuvos Harashba brought down by the beis yosef, as explained by the shach in nekudos hekessef, chassam sofer et al; all those medieval illogical Rabbis you so despise....


Online cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2018, 04:47:57 PM »
Let’s see how the leaders of klal Yisroel related to this prohibition: The chochmas adam- another one of those fanatics...

Hmmm who should I trust with my olam habah the ch”a or Chevron. Tough one...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 04:59:00 PM by cmey »

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #96 on: February 03, 2018, 06:50:43 PM »
I believe that your “mishugas” is better known as the Rivash, teshuvos Harashba brought down by the beis yosef, as explained by the shach in nekudos hekessef, chassam sofer et al; all those medieval illogical Rabbis you so despise....

Refer to Dayan halpen of manchester as one

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2018, 06:53:51 PM »
Let’s see how the leaders of klal Yisroel related to this prohibition: The chochmas adam- another one of those fanatics...

Hmmm who should I trust with my olam habah the ch”a or Chevron. Tough one...

not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays

Online ExGingi

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2018, 06:59:49 PM »
not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays
The reason Yomtov Sheini was implemented wasn't relevant many years prior to your perceived irrelevance of Stam Yeynam. However, full holiness of Yomtov exist on Yomtov Sheini in the places lucky enough to observe it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:33:56 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline Let3

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2018, 07:47:41 PM »
not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays
I don’t see how you proved that it’s not relevant today.

Just how you decided that it was “illogical from the start” and how it should also apply to beer breweries today.

(Maybe if that were as common in those days it would have been included as well)...

Online cmey

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2018, 08:25:21 PM »
not sure your point ? You are either dimwitted or deaf. I dont drink stam yaynam, I said it should be repealed. These moronic attacks are childish. You clearly have not learned nuanced discussion techniques.

I.E. the reason stam yaynam was implemented is not relevant nowadays

“These opinions are mine, not my chavrusas, they are stuff we discuss, i'm not saying he agrees or endorses my opinions but he doesnt call me a heretic.”

I think my point is pretty clear- calling those following the generally accepted psak about non shomer shabbos touching wine a mishugas and stam yayim one of the first things that should be repealed, when the Chochmas Adam (as an aside, he might appeal to you as a posek; he actually wasn’t one of those guys who sat in kollel all day; he was a successful merchant for 15 years learning on the side), at a time when the original reasons for the gezeira were likewise not relevant, states that it is worthy of one losing his olam habah- and he doesn’t say this about most DE’ORAYSAHS- should give anyone pause. Perhaps one is missing something that is relevant to understanding the gezeira, it’s severity, and it’s applicability nowadays. Perhaps a dose of humility is warranted rather than a snap judgement declaring something a mishugas or irrelevant and having no place in 2018.

I would never call you a heretic either. Just someone who has the potential to qrow and turn his cynicism into a healthy dose of skepticism, which in the end of the day results in a person who is stronger and healthier spiritually than one who never thinks for himself. I have faith that you will get there with time. Hatzlacha.


Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2018, 10:01:33 PM »
The reason Yomtov Sheini was implemented wasn't relevant many years prior to your perceived irrelevance of Stam Yeynam. However, full holiness of Yomtov exist on Yomtov Sheini in the places lucky enough to observe it.

Yom tov shaini is implemented from bayis shayni. its not a 12th century porhibition

Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2018, 10:02:52 PM »
I don’t see how you proved that it’s not relevant today.

Just how you decided that it was “illogical from the start” and how it should also apply to beer breweries today.

(Maybe if that were as common in those days it would have been included as well)...

i.e. one can drink beer with non jews or mevushal wine with non jews etc

Offline noturbizniss

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2018, 10:03:11 PM »
The reason Yomtov Sheini was implemented wasn't relevant many years prior to your perceived irrelevance of Stam Yeynam. However, full holiness of Yomtov exist on Yomtov Sheini in the places lucky enough to observe it.
Lucky enough? As in ey is lacking by not having it?
READ THE DARN WIKI!!!!

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Offline chevron

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Re: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« Reply #104 on: February 03, 2018, 10:07:18 PM »
I think my point is pretty clear- calling those following the generally accepted psak about non shomer shabbos touching wine a mishugas and stam yayim one of the first things that should be repealed, when the Chochmas Adam (as an aside, he might appeal to you as a posek; he actually wasn’t one of those guys who sat in kollel all day; he was a successful merchant for 15 years learning on the side), at a time when the original reasons for the gezeira were likewise not relevant, states that it is worthy of one losing his olam habah- and he doesn’t say this about most DE’ORAYSAHS- should give anyone pause. Perhaps one is missing something that is relevant to understanding the gezeira, it’s severity, and it’s applicability nowadays. Perhaps a dose of humility is warranted rather than a snap judgement declaring something a mishugas or irrelevant and having no place in 2018.

I would never call you a heretic either. Just someone who has the potential to qrow and turn his cynicism into a healthy dose of skepticism, which in the end of the day results in a person who is stronger and healthier spiritually than one who never thinks for himself. I have faith that you will get there with time. Hatzlacha.

#1 the meshugas is of restaurants that dont allow it.
#2 theres no halachik prohibition of a goy or non ss jew to touch wine, the porhibition is pouring or shichshuch.

Any one can write anything, I said yayn stam imho is not applicable today, just as in the times of the rambam he ruled that he woman who leaves the house without a chador is grounds for divorce etc