Dating in the jewish world while disabled

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Don't believe all the hype. If it works for millions it must have some benefit.

It actually could contribute to a more stable marriage.

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Does it though? Percentage-wise?

Divorce rate in the jewish world is creeping up, as is the unmarried rate.

But for those in the non jewish world with the same life goals as a frum jew, marriage, house, kids, monogamy.. yes it works.

[skyguy918]

Divorce rate in the jewish world is creeping up, as is the unmarried rate.

But for those in the non jewish world with the same life goals as a frum jew, marriage, house, kids, monogamy.. yes it works.

Do you have hard numbers for any of those claims - especially on a comparative basis?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Does it though? Percentage-wise?

Look at the divorce rate in the Catholic community 50 years ago and what it is today. Did the dating process change much? I would say no. So why a higher divorce rate?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Do you have hard numbers for any of those claims - especially on a comparative basis?

Do you think you would be able to get any accurate numbers?

[skyguy918]

Do you think you would be able to get any accurate numbers?

No. And that's my point. You're unlikely to get a reliable picture of the differences between communities, or within a community across time. Hence people tend to gravitate toward their own experience and outlooks.

[Dan]

Look at the divorce rate in the Catholic community 50 years ago and what it is today. Did the dating process change much? I would say no. So why a higher divorce rate?

In 1967 the median age of a first wedding in the US was 23.1 for men and 20.6 for women. Now it's nearly 30 for men and 28 for women. Add more years to that until the first kid. Divorce is way up, average number of married households is way down, number of kids per household is tumbling down.

In the shidduch system it's still at the 1967 numbers. You marry young, when you aren't as rigid and can still somewhat adapt. The older people get, the harder it is to adapt to someone else. People in the shidduch system for a long time get pickier and pickier with each passing date. But what if the things they are learning to be pick about isn't something that actually matters for the success of a marriage?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

In 1967 the median age of a first wedding in the US was 23.1 for men and 20.6 for women. Now it's nearly 30 for men and 28 for women. Add more years to that until the first kid. Divorce is way up, average number of married households is way down, number of kids per household is tumbling down.

In the shidduch system it's still at the 1967 numbers. You marry young, when you aren't as rigid and can still somewhat adapt. The older people get, the harder it is to adapt to someone else. People in the shidduch system for a long time get pickier and pickier with each passing date. But what if the things they are learning to be pick about isn't something that actually matters for the success of a marriage?

One of the main reason for the higher divorce rate among Catholics is the way the community looks at it. You were an outcast 50-60 years ago when you got divorced. The pressure and stigma of divorce was greater than the pain some suffered in their marriage.

[Denverite]

You marry young, when you aren't as rigid and can still somewhat adapt. The older people get, the harder it is to adapt to someone else. People in the shidduch system for a long time get pickier and pickier with each passing date. But what if the things they are learning to be pick about isn't something that actually matters for the success of a marriage?

+1, which may be why, for certain people that it's clear early on the shidduch system isn't going to work for, that they try other avenues relatively early on, not when they are set in their ways, ten years later. Again, Baruch HaShem, I realized I need to be very pro-active from the beginning of my dating while I was still young enough to have a good pool of guys to choose from.

That being said, if people want an interesting book with lots of numbers, explaining how the secular 1st world is literally in a suicide spiral (I love this type of dorky non-fiction) read:
https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/what-to-expect-when-no-ones-expecting-americas-coming-demographic-disaster/

One of the things he discusses is that without society and religious strictures, men have no incentive to get married and even if they do, have no pressure to have kids (another thing frum girls should appreciate about the Jewish way: they don't have to worry that a guy will finally marry them and then pressure them to delay or not have kids).  He notes that in Germany, fully a quarter of males think the ideal number of children is zero...hmm, so if you are an average German woman that wants to have kids, your dating pool in Germany just got limited by 25% right there.

Time to start a DDF Shidduch facilitating group. Middle aged or so couples (vetted) who would be amenable to hosting singles for a shabbos meal or other viable gatherings and be willing to help stand in as shadchanim as needed. Only half joking. I have a feeling though that bringing in boys that are on par with the girls would be challenging.

Doesn't even need to be that formal, although it could help to have some way to have all these single guys hanging around on DDF get connected to all the social stuff already going on that tends to have way more female participation!!  For @pbf and others, could you start to spend time in Yeshiv(ish), Right-wing Modern or OOT communities that maintain their hashkafa in more open ways and provide mixed-settings for socializing?

[gingyguy]

I'm sorry but you constantly referencing your wines and dinners, and the incessant cursing don't help your case

doesnt all that prove he isnt bitter?

[sky121]

Just a side note- I think back in the day a lot of women who maybe wanted a divorce were scared of not being able to take care of themselves financially.  Now you have women with better careers than their spouses who are fine being on their own. I def think that has a small part in the divorce rate rise.

[Denverite]

Just a side note- I think back in the day a lot of women who maybe wanted a divorce were scared of not being able to take care of themselves financially.  Now you have women with better careers than their spouses who are fine being on their own. I def think that has a small part in the divorce rate rise.

Totally true and then you also add totally unrealistic expectations of life perpetuated by feminism.  The majority of divorces today in the US are actually initiated by women.

[pbf]

I AM NOT bitter. I have a 6 course 12 wines dinner tonight and I dont give 2 flying f***s about dates.

I feel bad for the situation the writer in the article is in. I can relate to their hurt and pain.

I dont care because I wont get near the shidduch system so it doesnt affect me.  But, you cant understand how much harder it is for disabled people.

Your dinner has no relevance or connection to the topic at hand. I'm the first to say that I enjoy my life immensely. I am not desperate to get married at all and I love my age as each year passes (contrary to most people my age). But that doesn't change how hard the dating scene is.
You're right, I can't understand and I won't pretend to. But you are still coming across as bitter.

[Denverite]

On another only tangentially related note, I'm reading a spectacular book with lots of tips I'm using with one of my kids, that can help any person that feels awkward in social settings (but really I think everyone should read it because if not for yourself to help understand and relate better to others in your family, work and social life):

https://www.amazon.com/Awkward-Science-Socially-Thats-Awesome-ebook/dp/B01GCCT3DE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1518649005&sr=8-2&keywords=awkward+book

Shidduch dates are awkward at BEST so I guess it is apropos to the discussion! 

[pbf]

+1, which may be why, for certain people that it's clear early on the shidduch system isn't going to work for, that they try other avenues relatively early on, not when they are set in their ways, ten years later. Again, Baruch HaShem, I realized I need to be very pro-active from the beginning of my dating while I was still young enough to have a good pool of guys to choose from.

That being said, if people want an interesting book with lots of numbers, explaining how the secular 1st world is literally in a suicide spiral (I love this type of dorky non-fiction) read:
https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/what-to-expect-when-no-ones-expecting-americas-coming-demographic-disaster/

One of the things he discusses is that without society and religious strictures, men have no incentive to get married and even if they do, have no pressure to have kids (another thing frum girls should appreciate about the Jewish way: they don't have to worry that a guy will finally marry them and then pressure them to delay or not have kids).  He notes that in Germany, fully a quarter of males think the ideal number of children is zero...hmm, so if you are an average German woman that wants to have kids, your dating pool in Germany just got limited by 25% right there.

Doesn't even need to be that formal, although it could help to have some way to have all these single guys hanging around on DDF get connected to all the social stuff already going on that tends to have way more female participation!!  For @pbf and others, could you start to spend time in Yeshiv(ish), Right-wing Modern or OOT communities that maintain their hashkafa in more open ways and provide mixed-settings for socializing?

It doesn't really work. I'm a non-conformist myself but even I know that if you want a certain caliber spouse, you need to maintain somewhat specific standards.
Like I said, I actually fight this a lot more than those around me would like and I do believe at the end of the day you gotta be true to yourself. But if you start mingling in different crowds, you become that 'type', which gets your certain types of dates.

[Denverite]

It doesn't really work. I'm a non-conformist myself but even I know that if you want a certain caliber spouse, you need to maintain somewhat specific standards.
Like I said, I actually fight this a lot more than those around me would like and I do believe at the end of the day you gotta be true to yourself. But if you start mingling in different crowds, you become that 'type', which gets your certain types of dates.

I understand. Such a tough spot but it seems you are at peace.

[Dan]

On another only tangentially related note, I'm reading a spectacular book with lots of tips I'm using with one of my kids, that can help any person that feels awkward in social settings (but really I think everyone should read it because if not for yourself to help understand and relate better to others in your family, work and social life):

https://www.amazon.com/Awkward-Science-Socially-Thats-Awesome-ebook/dp/B01GCCT3DE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1518649005&sr=8-2&keywords=awkward+book

Shidduch dates are awkward at BEST so I guess it is apropos to the discussion! 

I'm an introvert by nature, and growing up with 5 brothers I had exactly zero social interaction with girls before shidduch dating.
Was awkward with the first few girls I dated, but eventually I found my footing.

Super annoying to fly across the country and be dumped after a single date, but c'est la vie.

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doesnt all that prove he isnt bitter?

No, it just means I choose to enjoy life. But I realize that its foolish to argue any point here. No one has taken me seriously, regardless of any argument on the tone, nature, layout and presentation of my discussion.

You guys keep mixing apples and oranges discussing the shidduch situation for healthy singles while the article I posted was in reference to disabled people.

My point was and is, i'm not going to be treated like a circus freak having to discuss every nuanced aspect of my life and health etc in terms of dating, so I dont. I am not bitter, you do a gross miscarriage to imply this, you dont know me. dont foist your opinions of me onto me

I am bitter at the way disabled singles are treated, but I dont really care for myself personally.

[Denverite]

No, it just means I choose to enjoy life. But I realize that its foolish to argue any point here. No one has taken me seriously, regardless of any argument on the tone, nature, layout and presentation of my discussion.

You guys keep mixing apples and oranges discussing the shidduch situation for healthy singles while the article I posted was in reference to disabled people.

My point was and is, i'm not going to be treated like a circus freak having to discuss every nuanced aspect of my life and health etc in terms of dating, so I dont. I am not bitter, you do a gross miscarriage to imply this, you dont know me. dont foist your opinions of me onto me

I am bitter at the way disabled singles are treated, but I dont really care for myself personally.

This thread only moved into other areas because many of us are agreeing with you about the way disabled people are treated in the shidduch system (that’s why I said it probably isn’t for you) and ALSO acknowledged that in addition to disabled people, there are many others who might want to be proactive about other ways for them to meet their bashert.

[gingyguy]

i agreed with you from the beginning that its harder for disabled people . its the caustic way your saying it that makes you seem bitter. i apologize if i offended you