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1) The Holocaust happened because Jews were unable to obtain guns due to Poland's notoriously strict gun laws.
2) The left wants an absolute gun ban - no guns at all, any type, for anyone, ever.
3) The right wants mass shootings, especially school shootings.
4) Everyone agrees we need to require better background checks and use more discretion in handing out gun licenses.
4.a The right cannot pass such legislation because it is a slippery slope to banning all guns, everywhere, for everyone.
4.b The left cannot pass such legislation because it is not enough.
5)  Every school in the US should have metal detectors at the entrance, be surrounded by a 30' cement wall and have armed guards in every classroom and hallway. The more guns around kids the better.
6) 7 year olds going through half an hour of security theater every day just to go to school is a perfectly normal and acceptable solution.
7) The second amendment entitles every US citizen to an AR-15.
8 ) Laws don't prevent crimes.
9) Guns don't kill people
10) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct. (D)
11) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct  (R)

Author Topic: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)  (Read 200252 times)

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #400 on: February 16, 2018, 02:36:31 PM »
Why? One tool is now removed and we are that much better off for it.
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"

Offline Sport

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #401 on: February 16, 2018, 02:39:20 PM »
I did. Are you trying to say my point was any school shooting was a "mass" school shooting? Kids bringing guns into school is a big problem but different from mass shootings.
I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, I did think you (and whoever quotes this stat) were conflating the 2 or worse, internationally being vauge to fool people.
I do hear your point though. But I still maintain that stats like these don't help anyone's cause.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #402 on: February 16, 2018, 02:41:20 PM »
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"
Blah blah blah and not one idea to solve the problem. This won't work and that wont work.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #403 on: February 16, 2018, 02:41:47 PM »
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"
1. I don't see why it would be meaningless in impact. If it takes more time to shoot then the football coach who tried rushing him may have been successful.
2. I do not see that the right to bear a form of arms which its only use in the hands of a civilian is to murder is a civil right. Neither does SCOTUS.
3. What is your source that more civilians are saved by guns than murdered?
4. Even if they are you are making a straw man argument to people who are not advocating a broad based gun ban.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #404 on: February 16, 2018, 02:43:24 PM »
I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, I did think you (and whoever quotes this stat) were conflating the 2 or worse, internationally being vauge to fool people.
I do hear your point though. But I still maintain that stats like these don't help anyone's cause.
Of course they are going to slant the stats in their favor to prove their point. Just as US slants the mass shooting stats to make it seem we are not as bad as other countries.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #405 on: February 16, 2018, 02:44:43 PM »
Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths.
Where did you get this from?
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Online avromie7

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #406 on: February 16, 2018, 02:45:09 PM »
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #407 on: February 16, 2018, 02:46:37 PM »
Non-PC opinion- Banning guns is just a convenient way of ignoring the gun violence caused by minorities. Remove their numbers from the statistics and we'd be having a drastically different discussion.
Discussing mass shootings, not all gun violence.

Online avromie7

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I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #409 on: February 16, 2018, 02:51:42 PM »
It was repealed before it actually went into effect.
https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF
If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #410 on: February 16, 2018, 02:52:54 PM »
Reports of ANOTHER mass shooting in Washington community College, 19 dead.
Don't know it's realiblity
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #411 on: February 16, 2018, 02:56:44 PM »
Reports of ANOTHER mass shooting in Washington community College, 19 dead.
Don't know it's realiblity
Nothing on the news.
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Offline davidrotts63

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Online avromie7

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #413 on: February 16, 2018, 02:59:11 PM »
If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?
https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment

Quote
A year ago, Congress and Trump eliminated a proposed rule that would have included in the federal government gun background database people who received disability payments from Social Security and received assistance to manage their benefits due to mental impairments.

This is a regulation that potentially deprived between 75,000 to 80,000 people of a right based not on what they had done but on the basis of being classified by the government in a certain way. The fact that these people may have these impairments did not inherently mean that they were dangerous to themselves or others and needed to be kept away from guns.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #414 on: February 16, 2018, 02:59:50 PM »
1. I don't see why it would be meaningless in impact. If it takes more time to shoot then the football coach who tried rushing him may have been successful.
2. I do not see that the right to bear a form of arms which its only use in the hands of a civilian is to murder is a civil right. Neither does SCOTUS.
3. What is your source that more civilians are saved by guns than murdered?
4. Even if they are you are making a straw man argument to people who are not advocating a broad based gun ban.
1. Factually it doesn't take more time. It's easy to carry multiple handguns, it's easy to reload them, and it's been done before. Fact.

2. The only use of an AR is to murder?! It's these sort of nutso statements that precludes any serious discussion. There's a reason why millions of law abiding citizens own AR's and is not to go around murdering people.

And yes, after Heller, banning common firearms is illegal. And 2A is a civil right.

(It's these sort of ignorant, and frankly crazy, statements that cause gun owners to tune out people like you and to suspect that your true agenda is a total gun ban.)

3. A fair question. Here is one link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell Try googling "how many lives are saved by guns" and read through several articles.

4. There are plenty of comments on this thread who want to ban all AR's, yourself included I believe. Someone posted that all guns should be banned. A link to a NYT article that called for a repeal of 2A was posted.

What was that about a straw man? I can't hear you past all the rustling.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 03:13:26 PM by ssvarc »

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #415 on: February 16, 2018, 03:01:25 PM »
Scott is telling Wray to resign
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Online avromie7

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #416 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:05 PM »


If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?

Thats the BO law that was reversed.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #417 on: February 16, 2018, 03:08:56 PM »
The USA

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #418 on: February 16, 2018, 03:12:25 PM »
Where did you get this from?
From actually researching the issue, reading studies, etc. instead of having knee jerk reactions.

The researchers get the statistics on this issue the same primary ways statistics are gathered about these sort of things.

1. Surveys.
2. Crime statistics gathered through law enforcement.
3. Gathering media reports (similar to what Everytown does with mass shootings - except  here it's to show the life saving utility).

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #419 on: February 16, 2018, 03:14:47 PM »
3. A fair question. Here is one link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell Try googling "how many lives are saved by guns" and read through several articles.
Not one fact or study to back up the claims. You claim guns have saved more lives than murders. Were are the facts?
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