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1) The Holocaust happened because Jews were unable to obtain guns due to Poland's notoriously strict gun laws.
2) The left wants an absolute gun ban - no guns at all, any type, for anyone, ever.
3) The right wants mass shootings, especially school shootings.
4) Everyone agrees we need to require better background checks and use more discretion in handing out gun licenses.
4.a The right cannot pass such legislation because it is a slippery slope to banning all guns, everywhere, for everyone.
4.b The left cannot pass such legislation because it is not enough.
5)  Every school in the US should have metal detectors at the entrance, be surrounded by a 30' cement wall and have armed guards in every classroom and hallway. The more guns around kids the better.
6) 7 year olds going through half an hour of security theater every day just to go to school is a perfectly normal and acceptable solution.
7) The second amendment entitles every US citizen to an AR-15.
8 ) Laws don't prevent crimes.
9) Guns don't kill people
10) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct. (D)
11) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct  (R)

Author Topic: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)  (Read 200339 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #540 on: February 18, 2018, 01:19:54 PM »
Thats where it’s all coming from ? ::)
Ya, I have to rely on FBI stats. I know what you and think of them.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #541 on: February 18, 2018, 01:22:10 PM »
Experts feel that AR's are better since you'll miss less often, which is the single biggest issue leading to over-penetration.
In a home defense situation. Are you going to be shooting from the hip or taking your time and aiming?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #542 on: February 18, 2018, 01:22:54 PM »
Didn't look but I am guessing the answer is no. Thanks for pointing that out. Let me go Google again.  :)
Plus you have to remove felons, suicides and anyone else included in @ssvarc's arbitrary criteria.

Offline TimT

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #543 on: February 18, 2018, 01:25:09 PM »
Ya, I have to rely on FBI stats. I know what you and think of them.
I think of them the same you know of them.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #544 on: February 18, 2018, 01:26:44 PM »
I think of them the same you know of them.
Can someone dumb this done for me?
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Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #545 on: February 18, 2018, 01:27:11 PM »
Were all of those 17k killed by guns?
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?

Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #546 on: February 18, 2018, 01:30:20 PM »
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
It was a murder number. Why are felon in felon okay?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #547 on: February 18, 2018, 01:31:20 PM »
Plus you have to remove felons, suicides and anyone else included in @ssvarc's arbitrary criteria.
You call it arbitrary?

Why should suicides be a reason to remove a tool from the law abiding citizen to defend himself?

Why should felons killing each other be a reason to penalize law abiding citizens and remove a tool that they can use to protect themselves?

I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #548 on: February 18, 2018, 01:31:31 PM »
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
I guess I missed all that or you forgot to mention that with this stupid claim.
Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #549 on: February 18, 2018, 01:33:18 PM »
I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.
No you got called out on your ridicules original statement and now are try to backtrack. That is fine because it shows you were originally mistaken.
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Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #550 on: February 18, 2018, 01:34:36 PM »
It was a murder number. Why are felon in felon okay?
It was murders of innocent citizens by guns.

The reason for felon on felon, it's what I answered @Yehuda57:

You call it arbitrary?

Why should suicides be a reason to remove a tool from the law abiding citizen to defend himself?

Why should felons killing each other be a reason to penalize law abiding citizens and remove a tool that they can use to protect themselves?

I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #551 on: February 18, 2018, 01:34:47 PM »
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
Are you ever going to back up your claims?

By excluding suicide, felons or anyone else, are you saying you value the right to owning an assault rifle more than you value human life?

How many people die by accidental shootings? I'd wager it's more than innocents saved by guns.

And thus far my wager is as much evidence as you are willing to put up.

Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #552 on: February 18, 2018, 01:37:40 PM »
Just to be clear. I have no solid opinion on the matter other than that something is broken with the current system. Only one solid idea has been advanced and that is by @ChaimMoskowitz and it seems logical to me. Meanwhile most of the opposing opinions here have been against straw men which leads me to believe that there is not much of a logical argument against his proposal. When it comes to which gun is not appropriate for defense I am lost so for me it stands that there is difference of opinion about that as well as regarding some forms of hunting. That does seem to now undermine his argument. Does anyone have any real proposals to help with the current gun issue in this country?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #553 on: February 18, 2018, 01:40:31 PM »
I suggested banning AR and HCM. I have yet to see an defense for having 50-100 round HCM's.
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Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #554 on: February 18, 2018, 01:41:50 PM »
I guess I missed all that or you forgot to mention that with this stupid claim.
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.

Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #555 on: February 18, 2018, 01:45:47 PM »
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.
You still have not presented any numbers to back up that claim.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #556 on: February 18, 2018, 01:49:07 PM »
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.
I will explain it to you so even a 1st grader can understand. I post FBI stats for 7k+ murders in 2014. You posted a few links from different years. You are over 7k short of backing up your idiotic claim. PUOSTOGWH!!!
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Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #557 on: February 18, 2018, 02:22:19 PM »


Are you ever going to back up your claims?

A fair question. It depends who's asking. When I think the question is sincere by someone who's trying to understand, I'm willing to assist (e.g. reference my reply to @gingyguy).

However, if the people asking play a double standard where their claims are "logical", "common sense", etc. and I need to bring proof, no thanks.


I made a very specific claim, purposefully.

This claim was in response to those claiming that banning certain types of guns, or all guns, is common sense and therefore a good thing to try. They brought no proof beyond "common sense".

If you agree, and witnessed - as you claim, that guns can save lives, why do I need to prove my claim beyond "common sense"?

I don't. I've shown that common sense allows the claim that guns save lives. Therefore restricting them will harm innocent civilians.

First prove that your proposal to restrict the amount or types of guns won't harm innocent civilians, then I'll prove my point.

If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.

By excluding suicide, felons or anyone else, are you saying you value the right to owning an assault rifle more than you value human life?

No.

It's saying that people who commit suicide can easily do so without guns. (Removing guns in general won't have an significant impact as people can and will substitute other means. Removing AR's is statistically meaningless, as the vast overwhelming majority of suicides by firearms are with handguns.)

As public policy, I value giving law abiding citizens all means to protect themselves (for all threats) over worrying about felons killing each other.

Especially, since felons don't listen to laws by definition, and passing a ban on AR's won't magically suck them out of America (that ignoring that AR's are relatively easy to construct and getting even easier). Such a ban will leave law abiding citizens relatively disarmed while having little impact on criminals.

How many people die by accidental shootings? I'd wager it's more than innocents saved by guns.

And thus far my wager is as much evidence as you are willing to put up.

You'd lose that wager.

Accidental shootings, while terribly tragic, are a small percent of innocent people being killed by guns.

And is nothing compared to many more common dangers. E.g. Far more people drown each year then die in accidental shootings.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #558 on: February 18, 2018, 02:29:42 PM »
You'd lose that wager.

Accidental shootings, while terribly tragic, are a small percent of innocent people being killed by guns.

And is nothing compared to many more common dangers. E.g. Far more people drown each year then die in accidental shootings.
You are a joke. You have no answer so you avoid the question. Give the stats and not for drowning which I have no idea where that came from.

Still waiting for you to produce stats to backup your claim that 7k+ plus lives were saved by guns in 2014.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #559 on: February 18, 2018, 02:44:53 PM »

A fair question. It depends who's asking. When I think the question is sincere by someone who's trying to understand, I'm willing to assist (e.g. reference my reply to @gingyguy).

However, if the people asking play a double standard where their claims are "logical", "common sense", etc. and I need to bring proof, no thanks.

So basically anyone who asks a question you don't wish to answer allows you to say that the person is insincere. I did not say that you should agree with it because it is logical. I was very clear that I felt something should be done and his proposal made sense to me while until the most recent posts all you had to offer were straw men and ad hominem attacks. Finally in the last hour or so you actually made an argument showing practical uses for an AR15 which now changes the dynamics as i wrote before (but as @ChaimMoskowitz mentioned does not address HCM)
When it comes to which gun is not appropriate for defense I am lost so for me it stands that there is difference of opinion about that as well as regarding some forms of hunting. That does seem to now undermine his argument.
After I asked you what those were on Friday it took a whole bunch of straw men and ad hominem attacks before you actually answered the question. Meanwhile you have not backed up your claim that guns saved more innocent lives than they have taken despite having been asked numerous times. Instead you have shown that they save some lives which was never disputed. Your constant skirting of facts to back up your basic arguments has left an impression that you make the argument without having the facts and then try to find them later. That leads me to take your statements with a pile of salt.

Feelings don't care about your facts