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1) The Holocaust happened because Jews were unable to obtain guns due to Poland's notoriously strict gun laws.
2) The left wants an absolute gun ban - no guns at all, any type, for anyone, ever.
3) The right wants mass shootings, especially school shootings.
4) Everyone agrees we need to require better background checks and use more discretion in handing out gun licenses.
4.a The right cannot pass such legislation because it is a slippery slope to banning all guns, everywhere, for everyone.
4.b The left cannot pass such legislation because it is not enough.
5)  Every school in the US should have metal detectors at the entrance, be surrounded by a 30' cement wall and have armed guards in every classroom and hallway. The more guns around kids the better.
6) 7 year olds going through half an hour of security theater every day just to go to school is a perfectly normal and acceptable solution.
7) The second amendment entitles every US citizen to an AR-15.
8 ) Laws don't prevent crimes.
9) Guns don't kill people
10) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct. (D)
11) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct  (R)

Author Topic: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)  (Read 200310 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #560 on: February 18, 2018, 02:46:06 PM »
If you need to purpose ideas, at least purpose idea that everyone could agree with, and that might actually help.

(Mental health, increasing armed security in schools, etc.)
You mention mental health. Do you have a way to do this which would not have due process issues?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #561 on: February 18, 2018, 02:47:09 PM »
I will explain it to you so even a 1st grader can understand. I post FBI stats for 7k+ murders in 2014. You posted a few links from different years. You are over 7k short of backing up your idiotic claim. PUOSTOGWH!!!
Must have touched a nerve, as I see you've gone back to innuendo and insult.

You are a joke...

However, contrary to your claim, you posted a Quartz article that lumps all homicides together (felon on felon, innocent citizens, without firearms, etc.), while my claim excludes those. But you know this.

My links were from a one week period. But you should know this if you read them, or read my post when I brought them.

Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.

Why don't you go to the FBI website, pull up the stats and let's have a serious discussion.

Or we can go back to "common sense".

Your choice.

----

I have other things I need to take care beside for having internet discussions, so I'll try to check back in the next few days and see where we're holding.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 02:50:18 PM by ssvarc »

Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #562 on: February 18, 2018, 02:55:06 PM »

Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.

Why don't you go to the FBI website, pull up the stats and let's have a serious discussion.

Or we can go back to "common sense".

Your choice.


The issue is that YOU have made a claim without providing ANY DATA AT ALL to back it up! When you make a claim the burden of proof is on you to show that it is true. Without that it is argumentum ad ignorantiam and anyone can just claim it to be false without proof and will still be on equal footing with you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #563 on: February 18, 2018, 03:05:28 PM »
You mention mental health. Do you have a way to do this which would not have due process issues?
I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #564 on: February 18, 2018, 03:09:05 PM »
Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.
Here is a link for more than 8k each year for the last 20 years. So far you produced a few links were guns were used to stop a crime (your statement says saved lives). The first link they shot an unarmed man. Talk about using fake stats!!!
https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/murder-victims-weapons-used
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #565 on: February 18, 2018, 03:44:08 PM »


I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.

Make a DO!
I'll SU, while ya'll PU.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #566 on: February 18, 2018, 03:56:14 PM »

Make a DO!
I'll SU, while ya'll PU.
I'm sorry, what's SU and PU?

I would be glad to go to a DO someday, but for a serious discussion like this, no more than two others (three in total).

I'm in the same town as @aygart (as far as I can tell). If you live there as well, would be glad to meet over a meal and discuss. PM if interested and applicable.

Edit: Forget it, I think I figured it out.
Offer stands.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:59:34 PM by ssvarc »

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #567 on: February 18, 2018, 03:59:16 PM »
I'm sorry, what's SU and PU?

I would be glad to go to a DO someday, but for a serious discussion like this, no more than two others (three in total).

I'm in the same town as @aygart (as far as I can tell). If you live there as well, would be glad to meet over a meal and discuss. PM if interested and applicable.
PUOSU=put up or shut up
We can either do a full blown DO, or I can come lurk, won't really join the argument.
And yes, I'm in the same town
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #568 on: February 18, 2018, 04:00:46 PM »
PUOSU=put up or shut up
We can either do a full blown DO, or I can come lurk, won't really join the argument.
And yes, I'm in the same town
Sure, no problem. One or two guys, would love to discuss.

If interested, PM.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #569 on: February 18, 2018, 04:02:38 PM »
Sure, no problem. One or two guys, would love to discuss.

If interested, PM.
Post it on the Lakewood DO board if you want a full blown one, if you do just you and AY, I'd love to join, PM if arranged, but I'd likely just wind up asking some halachic questions to AY.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #570 on: February 18, 2018, 04:07:27 PM »
Post it on the Lakewood DO board if you want a full blown one, if you do just you and AY, I'd love to join, PM if arranged, but I'd likely just wind up asking some halachic questions to AY.
No, don't want a full blown DO as I don't think we would be able to have a serious discussion.

@aygart hasn't expressed any interest, nothing arranged.

I would be glad to meet with you alone or together with someone else as well (beside @aygart) - I don't know you guys so it's all relatively the same to me.


Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #571 on: February 18, 2018, 04:12:00 PM »
No, don't want a full blown DO as I don't think we would be able to have a serious discussion.

@aygart hasn't expressed any interest, nothing arranged.

I would be glad to meet with you alone or together with someone else as well (beside @aygart) - I don't know you guys so it's all relatively the same to me.
Have CM fly in and I'm in, I won't really join for something half baked, either a full blown DO, or at least with someone you can argue your point with
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #572 on: February 18, 2018, 04:23:43 PM »
Have CM fly in and I'm in...
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Yammer

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #573 on: February 18, 2018, 04:30:37 PM »
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
Why not?

You and @Ssvarc meet, you negotiate an agreeable solution, and poof! The next thing you know it's signed off by POTUS.

What a contribution to our Country...

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #574 on: February 18, 2018, 04:35:00 PM »
Why not?

You and @ssvarc meet, you negotiate an agreeable solution, and poof! The next thing you know it's signed off by POTUS.

What a contribution to our Country...
You don't have DO's to discuss things like this. It would be like me having a DO with @aygart to discuss Judaism. It wouldn't be a discussion. He would be the teacher and I would the student. Same thing with ssvarc expect I would be the student.  ;)
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Offline Yammer

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #575 on: February 18, 2018, 04:51:59 PM »
In all seriousness I've never formulated an opinion on Gun control. I never owned on, have no interest in owning one. Except for when in the news post tragedy my knowledge is pretty limited about them. ( Whenever I thought about it my thoughts went straight to how scared I would be with my kids around.)

That said I ( believe ) that i understand both sides of the argument.

1)Guns. Americans have a right to Guns. It's the 2A. Got it. However,  No one here believes that we should have tanks outside the house to ward off home invasions. ( It would probably keep the whole neighborhood safe..) There has to be something that can be agreed on. Whether it's assault rifles/ Bump stocks/ ammo amounts etc. I don't know, as I don't pretend to know. My question to @Ssvarc would be, is anything on the table?

2) Mental Health: Due process is something that shouldn't be taken lightly either. A law that gives due process except in an instance of an imminent threat, should be workable( with pork barrel for everyone...) @avromie7 is that fair?

Btw I don't think it's fair to blame Trump on the recent law. It was focused on an entirely different thing. From the various organizations/interest groups it's obvious that it wasn't the intention.

3) If rights are to be discussed then perhaps the agreement can come in a form of Rs giving in to gun rights with D's giving into to voting rights ( as an example ) to make everyone happy. ( Even I don't believe this...but who knows...) @ Chaim Moskowitz I'm way behind in the politics thread...but is this fair..

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #576 on: February 18, 2018, 05:11:15 PM »
@ Chaim Moskowitz I'm way behind in the politics thread...but is this fair..
Pretty much. One thing you have to remember this isn't a political negotiation where you exchange one pork barrel project for another.

I have already stated mental health issues and school security should be part of this. The other side here won't even agree that things like 50-100 round HCM and bump stocks should be banned. You decide who wants an honest discussion!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 05:15:22 PM by ChaimMoskowitz »
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #577 on: February 18, 2018, 05:20:27 PM »
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
Glad you caught on :)
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #578 on: February 18, 2018, 06:25:00 PM »
He hits the nail on the head.


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Offline aygart

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Re: Another mass shooting!!!
« Reply #579 on: February 18, 2018, 07:01:15 PM »
I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.
I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.
Feelings don't care about your facts