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1) The Holocaust happened because Jews were unable to obtain guns due to Poland's notoriously strict gun laws.
2) The left wants an absolute gun ban - no guns at all, any type, for anyone, ever.
3) The right wants mass shootings, especially school shootings.
4) Everyone agrees we need to require better background checks and use more discretion in handing out gun licenses.
4.a The right cannot pass such legislation because it is a slippery slope to banning all guns, everywhere, for everyone.
4.b The left cannot pass such legislation because it is not enough.
5)  Every school in the US should have metal detectors at the entrance, be surrounded by a 30' cement wall and have armed guards in every classroom and hallway. The more guns around kids the better.
6) 7 year olds going through half an hour of security theater every day just to go to school is a perfectly normal and acceptable solution.
7) The second amendment entitles every US citizen to an AR-15.
8 ) Laws don't prevent crimes.
9) Guns don't kill people
10) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct. (D)
11) Stats prove my side of the argument 100% correct  (R)

Author Topic: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)  (Read 200102 times)

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #660 on: February 20, 2018, 07:45:47 PM »
Last I checked, freedom of expression is a core freedom, characteristic of every democracy. How you would police every game, video, movie etc. and decide what could and can't be published is a question best answered by totalitarian regimes.
 The "right" to bear arms is a wrinkle unique to America.

The USA used to have other constitutionally enshrined "rights" as well, such as the right to own a human being. These were eliminated as part of a culture change. Other "rights" never before imagined have been read into the Constitution by the courts.

Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.
Not sure if this was supposed to answer my point. Not disagreeing that it's hard to police video games, but it would be very difficult to confiscate all guns as well. Obviously, the Constitution could be changed, but I don't think that's realistic, or that most normal ppl want that. Who cares what other countries feel should be a protected right?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #661 on: February 20, 2018, 07:48:35 PM »


Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.

I'm not convinced you're right, there's a reason the NRA is so powerful (no it's not because they pay off politicians, in the last 18 years they spent a fraction of what the labor unions spend in 1 year), it's because there are 10s of millions of people in this who hold the same positions as the NRA.

I'm hoping that before that happens, people will realize that the only way to stop bad guns is with good guns, instead of leaving law abiding citizens unarmed against criminals who don't care what the law says.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline aygart

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #662 on: February 20, 2018, 07:52:32 PM »
Last I checked, freedom of expression is a core freedom, characteristic of every democracy. How you would police every game, video, movie etc. and decide what could and can't be published is a question best answered by totalitarian regimes.
 The "right" to bear arms is a wrinkle unique to America.

The USA used to have other constitutionally enshrined "rights" as well, such as the right to own a human being. These were eliminated as part of a culture change. Other "rights" never before imagined have been read into the Constitution by the courts.

Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.
Where was there a right to own slaves enshrined in the constitution?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mordechain

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #663 on: February 20, 2018, 07:56:45 PM »
Where was there a right to own slaves enshrined in the constitution?
5th amendment

Offline yitzgar

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Offline aygart

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #665 on: February 20, 2018, 08:01:12 PM »
5th amendment
It won't incriminate you.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mordechain

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #666 on: February 20, 2018, 08:03:01 PM »
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #667 on: February 20, 2018, 08:04:10 PM »
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.
Seriously?

Offline mordechain

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #668 on: February 20, 2018, 08:04:29 PM »
Yup

Offline aygart

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #669 on: February 20, 2018, 08:13:05 PM »
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.
COME ON
That is not a protected right. In fact states had abolished slavery despite that amendment prior to the ratification of the 13th amendment with some states having abolished it prior to ratification of the Bill of Rights.

This is total ignorance.

Freedom of speech which would protect the regulation of games promoting violence is not part of European freedom of speech. The European Convention on Human Rights leaves this major caveat.

"The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #670 on: February 20, 2018, 08:19:04 PM »
Yup
Nope.

It doesn't speak to slavery, let alone enshrine it.

Likely, you're dimly remembering (and butchering) the Enumeration Clause and the Fugitive Clause.

They didn't mention slavery specifically (although, of course that was the explicit intent) and they certainly didn't enshrine it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:07:20 PM by ssvarc »

Offline mordechain

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #671 on: February 20, 2018, 08:23:45 PM »
See Dred Scott.  Or Ableman vs. Booth upholding the Fugitive Slave Act

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #672 on: February 20, 2018, 08:26:37 PM »
I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.
A pity. Much easier to discuss then to type, especially when dealing with multiple posts and posters.

We'll just have to go slow and piecemeal.

Offline ssvarc

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #673 on: February 20, 2018, 09:03:41 PM »
See Dred Scott.  Or Ableman vs. Booth upholding the Fugitive Slave Act
Instead of pointing to the Constitution, you point to horrible SCOTUS decisions, that were made in the leadup to the Civil War (DS 1857, A v B 1858, CW 1861) in the context of trying to hold the country together.

If anything, those decisions would have, perhaps, enshrined slavery. Except, instead, they led to a fight to the death over it.

Here's the relevant bits of Dred Scott:

"5. When the Constitution was adopted, they were not regarded in any of the States as members of the community which constituted the State, and were not numbered among its "people or citizens." Consequently, the special rights and immunities guarantied to citizens do not apply to them. And not being "citizens" within the meaning of the Constitution, they are not entitled to sue in that character in a court of the United States, and the Circuit Court has not jurisdiction in such a suit.

6. The only two clauses in the Constitution which point to this race treat them as persons whom it was morally lawfully to deal in as articles of property and to hold as slaves."

"The only two clauses in the Constitution which point to this race" - slaves were never explicitly mentioned, and certainly not enshrined.

Ableman vs Booth

"5. The act of Congress of September 18, 1850, usually called the fugitive slave law, is constitutional in all its provisions."

It's a bald statement that doesn't quote the Constitution to prove it's point, as it can't. This supposed right, that you called "enshrined", was alluded to, due to the Great Compromise.

If you're interested in Dred Scott you can listen to this episode: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/american-pendulum-ii-dred-scott

Offline mordechain

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #674 on: February 20, 2018, 09:22:02 PM »
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.




Offline ssvarc

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #675 on: February 20, 2018, 09:28:33 PM »
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.
Let's go even slower.

1. The right to property is still enshrined in the Constitution.

2. The words that actually enshrine them are still there.

3. I'm very late for night seder. Bl'n, I'll continue later tonight.

Offline aygart

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #676 on: February 20, 2018, 09:36:12 PM »
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.
Both Vermont and Massachusetts had abolished slavery by the time the Bill of rights was ratified. Over the next 25 years a bunch of other states did as well. How could they have been unconstitutional despite whatever crooked training you are using to show that. Either way this is nothing more than a distraction and shows more about your methods of reasoning than anything else.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #677 on: February 20, 2018, 09:36:51 PM »
Bump

Freedom of speech which would protect the regulation of games promoting violence is not part of European freedom of speech. The European Convention on Human Rights leaves this major caveat.

"The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #678 on: February 20, 2018, 10:04:08 PM »
Can you answer the question instead of deflecting? It doesn't need to be a specific number, it can be a realistic range.
Your question shows your extreme lack on knowledge of guns. If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline avromie7

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Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
« Reply #679 on: February 20, 2018, 10:13:04 PM »
Your question shows your extreme lack on knowledge of guns. If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.
Meaning 15-16 would still be dead?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.