Poll

Are You An Organ Donor?

Yes.
1 (3.3%)
No.
29 (96.7%)
Undecided.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Author Topic: Are You An Organ Donor?  (Read 23657 times)

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2018, 11:05:34 AM »
You mean like a kidney? Others say you cant be an organ donor.
There's no issue of being a living organ donor AFAIK, see my post above (bolded, underlined and italicized below for easy reference)
It's the same reason for not having an autopsy, even when apparent homicide. There are organizations the are always busy making sure that no autopsy is done on a Jewish Niftar. @ChaimMoskowitz I understand why to a non Jew this would seem wrong, but you have to understand, it's not that we don't donate because we're afraid that a non Jew will get the organ (there are Jews donating kidneys altruistically to non Jews all of the time, I have intimate knowledge of that, I was very close to doing that myself), it's simply because we treat our deceased with utmost respect (we also insist on burying ASAP out of respect).

@Redbull3 if this makes you embarrassed to be Jewish, you've got many other Judaism issues...
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Offline thaber

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2018, 11:08:45 AM »
Just to give a little clarification to the questions here but this is not really the proper forum for a real discussion so i will leave it at this..

The primary issue is that in order to harvest the organ it needs to have been oxygenated the entire time. The only way to accomplish that is if blood is still circulating. That creates issues of doing the procedures whil the person may still be alive and creates chayei sha'a issues. The is some controversy about this with Rabbi Tendler quoting Rav Moshe as having had cases where he allowed it but talmidim of his dispute this. Once the organ is already harvested the "deed is done" and there is no restriction on its use. There are many other issues involved as well.
We dont pull plugs. Therefore, we cannot donate organs, other than kidneys and part of liver, with which a person can live without. By definition, the donor is dying when their organs are "harvested". But they are not dead. They dont use organs from dead people, AFAIK. 

Why is that something to be embarrassed about? We are on the lists just like anyone else on the donation list. If you tied donating to receiving then we wouldnt receive.
Thank you - I know @aygart is dependable, as is @hvaces42 . This is what I was driving at. Kavod Hameis is not the primary issue. Chilul Shabbos for a non jew (AKA the Noah Feldman issue) is a very different sugya, much discussed in 2005 or whenever that was

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2018, 11:09:48 AM »
@hvaces42 are you saying that Hatzolah responds on Shabbos to calls that are 100% definite Goyim? I think what you mean is that they don't ask questions, and cover every call indiscriminately.
There is no such thing as 100%. They dont answer the phone "Hatzolah, Are you Jewish?" They answer "Hatzolah, What's your emergency?" And even if we know its a goy we have to do it mishum eivah. Those are the halochos I learned.

I'd like to ask you then, do you not understand that the reason why Jews can't donate organs while they can accept isn't one of selfishness rather it's one that's based on the law of respecting our deceased? (Not asking you to agree, just if you can see the difference)
This all has nothing to do with respecting the deceased. Harvesting organs requires a live donor. You as a non-jew don't consider someone who is brain dead alive. Therefore, you harvest their organs and then pull the plug after the organs are removed. Us as Jews do not believe that a brain dead patient is dead therefore we have no means of harvesting live usable organs. As we do not pull the plug from living patients.

As far as using tissue and retinas from dead patients that's the only instance that I can think of when one would be taking something from a dead patient and as far as that's concerned we do not carve up the Dead. It's not respectful.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2018, 11:12:36 AM »
Thank you - I know @aygart is dependable, as is @hvaces42 . This is what I was driving at. Kavod Hameis is not the primary issue. Chilul Shabbos for a non jew (AKA the Noah Feldman issue) is a very different sugya, much discussed in 2005 or whenever that was
Thank you. Exactly.

The way these threads end up going is that people start twisting themselves into pretzels to explain something they really don't understand themselves and end up saying things which are both wrong and look bad. I will not participate.
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Offline thaber

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2018, 11:12:52 AM »
when did @ChaimMoskowitz change gender?

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2018, 11:15:17 AM »
when did @ChaimMoskowitz change gender?
Same time as avatar. Everyone noticed the avatar but not gender. Says a lot about the members.  :)
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Offline TimT

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2018, 11:17:13 AM »
OK it is Friday so lets get it out. There is a perception (in the world) that Jews only care about themselves. You treat your deceased with the utmost respect. You don't treat the non-Jew deceased with the same respect. If it is wrong to take the organ of a deceased person then it is wrong. Not asking you to agree but do you understand what I am saying?
Do the people with that perception have any idea how many Jews help non-Jews all the time ?
IME itís usially just trolls & Jew hatred. And I do get out more.
A little example, a video of hatzalah cutting someone out of a truck & all the comments are bashing them that they only save Jews lives & how dare they pass a red light. Never mind that the guy they extricated isnít jewish. Thatís besides the point.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2018, 11:17:17 AM »
Same time as avatar. Everyone noticed the avatar but not gender. Says a lot about the members.  :)
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2018, 11:18:14 AM »
Before I answer more questions you need a baseline for who, what, when, where for "organ donors". You guys are all over the place.

Since it is JJ's thread he needs to clarify "organ donor".
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Offline Dan

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2018, 11:20:33 AM »
He already did
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2018, 11:22:45 AM »
Before I answer more questions you need a baseline for who, what, when, where for "organ donors". You guys are all over the place.

Since it is JJ's thread he needs to clarify "organ donor".

This whole topic was meant for organ donations after death.

2 issues, donating and accepting a donation.

A Jew would accept an organ from anyone with no halachic problems.

You said " If it is wrong to take the organ of a deceased person then it is wrong. " but we don't say it's wrong at all to accept.

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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2018, 11:29:04 AM »
Before I answer more questions you need a baseline for who, what, when, where for "organ donors". You guys are all over the place.

Since it is JJ's thread he needs to clarify "organ donor".

This whole topic was meant for organ donations after death.

2 issues, donating and accepting a donation.

A Jew would accept an organ from anyone with no halachic problems.

You said " If it is wrong to take the organ of a deceased person then it is wrong. " but we don't say it's wrong at all to accept.

This all has nothing to do with respecting the deceased. Harvesting organs requires a live donor. You as a non-jew don't consider someone who is brain dead alive. Therefore, you harvest their organs and then pull the plug after the organs are removed. Us as Jews do not believe that a brain dead patient is dead therefore we have no means of harvesting live usable organs. As we do not pull the plug from living patients.

As far as using tissue and retinas from dead patients that's the only instance that I can think of when one would be taking something from a dead patient and as far as that's concerned we do not carve up the Dead. It's not respectful.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2018, 11:35:57 AM »
As far as using tissue and retinas from dead patients that's the only instance that I can think of when one would be taking something from a dead patient and as far as that's concerned we do not carve up the Dead. It's not respectful.
So why not do it for a retina if it will help someone see, fwiu halahca regards blindness like death so it would be pekuach nefesh.

And what's the deal with these people? https://www.adi.gov.il/en/position-of-the-halacha/ are they not real halacha?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2018, 11:38:37 AM »
So why not do it for a retina if it will help someone see, fwiu halahca regards blindness like death so it would be pekuach nefesh.
Not regarding pikuach nefesh IIRC but need to look it up again.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2018, 11:41:27 AM »
He already did
This whole topic was meant for organ donations after death.

2 issues, donating and accepting a donation.

A Jew would accept an organ from anyone with no halachic problems.

You said " If it is wrong to take the organ of a deceased person then it is wrong. " but we don't say it's wrong at all to accept.
Sorry I missed it. Lets see if I have it right.
Jews are not allowed to be an "organ donor" for anyone.
The only ones that are allowed to be an "organ donor" for Jews is a non-Jews.
Do I have this right?
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Offline Dan

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2018, 11:42:30 AM »
Not regarding pikuach nefesh IIRC but need to look it up again.
Is a blind person not compared to the dead?
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Offline shwarmabob

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2018, 11:43:22 AM »
Sorry I missed it. Lets see if I have it right.
Jews are not allowed to be an "organ donor" for anyone.
The only ones that are allowed to be an "organ donor" for Jews is a non-Jews.
Do I have this right?
No, you have been misled

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2018, 11:44:24 AM »
Sorry I missed it. Lets see if I have it right.
Jews are not allowed to be an "organ donor" for anyone.
The only ones that are allowed to be an "organ donor" for Jews is a non-Jews.
Do I have this right?
I believe @aygart mplied that if a jew wrongfully does choose to donate you may accept it, CMIIW
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Offline aygart

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2018, 11:44:50 AM »
Sorry I missed it. Lets see if I have it right.
Jews are not allowed to be an "organ donor" for anyone.
The only ones that are allowed to be an "organ donor" for Jews is a non-Jews.
Do I have this right?
I do not think that Judaism would allow non-jews to be organ donors either but am not certain about that. If it is considered to be killing the donor when harvesting the organ I don't see how whether the donor is Jewish or not makes a difference.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Are You An Organ Donor?
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2018, 11:46:10 AM »
Is a blind person not compared to the dead?
So is a poor person. That does not mean it is an absolute comparison. It is דומה comparable which does not mean equivalent.
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