Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[EliJelly]

You showing me a Gemara like it's a "got you" when it wasn't even the point, Ikkarim are Ikkarim for a reason so I know it's wrong the second you say it even though I didn't remember the Gemara although it's been not too long since I did it with daf yomi, that's how bad my memory is, your sages are my sages, I hold our sages very dearly, and I look at the GREATEST sages first and then later sages...and so yes for someone in the 1700-1800 to say you are not bichllal Yehudi if there isn't a rishon that holds like that I don't consider that authoritative...I apologize if you have an issue with that.

That famous לשון in תפארת שלמה is pretty sharp and indeed mechudash. I'm sure there is a good reason for it because he wasn't just throwing those out of thin air, especially if you open up a תפארת שלמה and get to know the character of it. הקב״ה גוזר והצדיק מבטלה is a concept which is a main focus on in many sefarim, like in נועם אלימלך (Today was Yahrtzeit) which is primarily focused on מדריגת הצדיק, so it's definitely a common theme.

I'm glad that you hold our sages so dearly and that you've changed your tone from the chutzpahdig fashion in your initial post to a more respectful way. It's nothing about me personal and no need for these apologies.

 

[Philosophypsych]

So what's your pashut pshat in צור ישראל? Rock of Israel huh?
And אלהי ישראל? 
And הקבה?
And בי?
Okay yes my friend, start learning the basic sifrei kabbalah and you'll see why they call it דרך האמת you'll start noticing the subtle differences in maamarei chazal and what they refer too

[Philosophypsych]

That famous לשון in תפארת שלמה is pretty sharp and indeed mechudash. I'm sure there is a good reason for it because he wasn't just throwing those out of thin air, especially if you open up a תפארת שלמה and get to know the character of it. הקב״ה גוזר והצדיק מבטלה is a concept which is a main focus on in many sefarim, like in נועם אלימלך (Today was Yahrtzeit) which is primarily focused on מדריגת הצדיק, so it's definitely a common theme.

I'm glad that you hold our sages so dearly and that you've changed your tone from the chutzpahdig fashion in your initial post to a more respectful way. It's nothing about me personal and no need for these apologies.

That's all fine and dandy, I personally love sifrei chasidus like Tanya and R Tzadok are favorites...
But I'm talking between me and you, you're taking even if it's a common idea in chassidus and holding everybody accountable in an open forum saying your not Jewish if you don't believe in abc is plain wrong.
Im not trying to say anything negative about chasidus C"V I'm saying the same for the shitas hagra...I don't consider you an Apikores although you don't believe in the Gaons shitah in tzimtzum right?

[Philosophypsych]

What's the whole miracle of Purim, wasn't Mordecai a tzadik so he cud just be mvatel if things get too bad no?
Yes is there a certain amount of "intervention" tzadikim cud do at certain points of the gzar din, yes, others no.
ויכתב לאבדם..if it's נחתם בדם (wtvr דם refers to..😉) the tzadik no longer has control right?
So nothing is as pashut as it seems at first when your read the maamor chazal either .

[EliJelly]

You're totally missing the point here. I took issue with your tone. If you don't understand something from our biggest then seek explanation or leave it as is. Don't attribute distortions upon them and don't dare to say "totally wrong" because it doesn't fit in your minute brain.

I don't consider you an Apikores although you don't believe in the Gaons shitah in tzimtzum right?

Who am I believe to or disbelieve in what the Gra posited?? The Gra was a Malach Elokim and I'd shy away from sticking my head out in his presence, let alone *agreeing or disagreeing* with his shitos. I don't believe that what Hashem wants from me is to be an arbiter on the dispute of צמצום, definitely not at my current stage. This whole approach rubs extremely wrong with me.

[EliJelly]

what if I told you tzadik is referring to the sefirah of yesod and that's what we mean by צדיק מושל בי..

דְּלָא הֲוָה גְּזֵרָה דְּאִתְגְּזַר עַל עָלְמָא לְעֵילָּא, דְּלָא מְבַטֵּל לָהּ. וְהַיְינוּ דִּכְתִּיב, (שמואל בכג) מוֹשֵׁל בָּאָדָם, קוּדְשָׁא בְּרִיךְ הוּא מוֹשֵׁל בָּאָדָם. וּמִי מוֹשֵׁל בְּקוּדְשָׁא בְּרִיךְ הוּא כִּבְיָכוֹל. צַדִּיק. דְּקוּדְשָׁא בְּרִיךְ הוּא גָּזִיר, וְאִיהוּ מְבַטֵּל כְּגוֹן רַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן יוֹחָאי, דְּיוֹמָא חַד הֲוָה יָתִיב אַבָּבָא דְּתַרְעָא וכו׳

This Zohar and many others indicates the obvious pshat.

[Philosophypsych]

This approach! You're funny ...okay you're still stuck in yeshivah..
The ירידת הדורות is אין לשער..yes if נפש החיים שער ג' is still so out of your realm that you can't believe hashem expects you to familiarize yourself with a מחלקת of גדולי עולם for 100s of years and one that just so recently r Chaim vilozhin wrote for the bnei yeshivah just so we don't forget the basic principles for which that hashkafah stands for...and this is beyond our human capacities let's grow up and have some self confidence and learn with the seforim say stop being so scared of going over your bounds I can assure you, אין דבר העומד בפני הרצון

[Philosophypsych]

Just getting that vibe, together with your phobia of kabbalah it's straight from the yeshivas lol

[bochur22]

Just getting that vibe, together with your phobia of kabbalah it's straight from the yeshivas lol

So dump on the Shach too, why not? I mean, he's the Mekor not to learn Kabbalah until one is ready.

[bochur22]

This approach! You're funny ...okay you're still stuck in yeshivah..
The ירידת הדורות is אין לשער..yes if נפש החיים שער ג' is still so out of your realm that you can't believe hashem expects you to familiarize yourself with a מחלקת of גדולי עולם for 100s of years and one that just so recently r Chaim vilozhin wrote for the bnei yeshivah just so we don't forget the basic principles for which that hashkafah stands for...and this is beyond our human capacities let's grow up and have some self confidence and learn with the seforim say stop being so scared of going over your bounds I can assure you, אין דבר העומד בפני הרצון

The question is which Ratzon is going on. I mean, since when are we meant to "familiarize yourself with Machloikesim of Gedoilei Oilam for 100's of years" like we have some sort of Dea here? Just to slam people over the head with my personal interpretation of what the Zohar means? The order of the "Farher" after 120 has Ma'aseh Merkavah last for a reason. And even the Amoraim who went into Pardes weren't ready for certain things there even on their level. Jumping into Kabbala "Just because the Yeshivos say not to"  is at best just an invitation to misunderstanding what you read. (Not even gonna call it learning) I don't know you or where you're holding in Torah, but your tone doesn't sit right by me.

[EliJelly]

Just getting that vibe, together with your phobia of kabbalah it's straight from the yeshivas lol

Again, I'd forgive your enthusiasm for Kabbalah as long as it doesn't go over your head, as long you remember that those who Klal Yisrael holds in the highest regard knew everything what you know, plus the other 99% that you don't. Especially a sefer like תפארת שלמה which is full of Kabbalah too. If you forget your place in the world just from glimpsing here and there then probably you should stay off, lehavdil like alcohol if it gets to your head too fast then its likely not for you.

[imayid2]

@Philosophypsych ‘s  point was taking issue with the assertion that someone who doesn’t believe in that concept isn’t בכלל יהודי. He is right of course. The Gemara in m”k says nothing about that, the concept being true it doesn’t make it an ikkur emunah.

Of course the תפארת שלמה knows this though, he doesn’t mean it literally obviously, just a way of saying  that it’s very important.

[Definitions]

I don't know who the mechaber is, but doesn't sound right. I'm sorry.
R Yosef Albo has 3 Ikkarim, Rambam has 13.
To say you're not bichllal Yehudi for an inyan of Emunah that isn't even an Ikar is totally uncalled for, and just wrong!
I don't even see the issue at all if someone does not believe it, he flips the words around says הקבה גוזר והצדיק מבטל.. chazal say צדיק גוזר והקבה מקיים..two very different things ...whatever.. but always off putting when u see these seforim say "and anyone that does this and this, אינו בכלל יהודי" like what are you doing, if it's a rishon it's one thing but otherwise there are clear things that make or don't make u בכלל יהודי don't add on to what we have please, כלל ישראל is dealing with enough as it is.

To me it's quite obvious that he's saying it's a siman that he's not bichlal Yehudi. Not that this itself is an ikkar. The same goes for other seforim that you mention

[Definitions]

...back down...

To make this clear to you if it's not clear yet.  these types of requests are impossible. If I were him I'd reply that you should type up the apology and then I'll copy and post it.

[EliJelly]

@Philosophypsych ‘s  point was taking issue with the assertion that someone who doesn’t believe in that concept isn’t בכלל יהודי. He is right of course. The Gemara in m”k says nothing about that, the concept being true it doesn’t make it an ikkur emunah.

Of course the תפארת שלמה knows this though, he doesn’t mean it literally obviously, just a way of saying  that it’s very important.

I knew exactly what is issue was, I took issue with;

You're totally missing the point here. I took issue with your tone. If you don't understand something from our biggest then seek explanation or leave it as is. Don't attribute distortions upon them and don't dare to say "totally wrong" because it doesn't fit in your minute brain.

[Philosophypsych]

The question is which Ratzon is going on. I mean, since when are we meant to "familiarize yourself with Machloikesim of Gedoilei Oilam for 100's of years" like we have some sort of Dea here? Just to slam people over the head with my personal interpretation of what the Zohar means? The order of the "Farher" after 120 has Ma'aseh Merkavah last for a reason. And even the Amoraim who went into Pardes weren't ready for certain things there even on their level. Jumping into Kabbala "Just because the Yeshivos say not to"  is at best just an invitation to misunderstanding what you read. (Not even gonna call it learning) I don't know you or where you're holding in Torah, but your tone doesn't sit right by me.

Here we go again, I'm guessing another bachur who never learned any of the seforim and still thinks that learning about the sefiros is being יורד למרכבה...you can learn kabbalah only for the rest of your life and you won't get anywhere close to being יורד למרכבה...I doubt having a basic idea of kabbalistic concepts is what the shach is referring too, so I'm not allowed to learn רמב"ן on chumash until after I'm 40 either?
All of tfilah is completely based on the sefiros...
If you learn the history of kabbalah you'll know that kabbalah has gone through many stages in it's development, from Geonim to rishoshim, chasidei Ashkenaz, abulafia, tzfas, shabsai tzvi ימ"ש,  Italian mekubalim, etc...so you always have to take it in context, The ש"ך was 5 years older then shabsai tzvi, and when he's advising reluctance of learning kabbalah he's most likely referring to תורת הארי..but even if not, the atmosphere at that time was what resulted in a terrible tragedy, it wasn't meant to prevent people 400 years later from having any idea of what sefiros are and what names of hashem represent...
Besides it's been accepted  ever since the 1800's that this no longer applies from the year תר'
Nobody who took themselves seriously waited till they were 40 to start learning kabbalah, in fact can you name me someone in the last 500 years who wrote something on kabbalah that didn't start learning it until they were 40?
For that 1 shach, I can show you 10 more that explicitly argue on him..
I promise you, no harm will come from you learning פרדס רימונים and תומר דבורה.
Let's debunk this phobia!

[yelped]

@Philosophypsych A little humility will go a long way.

The Kamarna also writes about learning kabbalah at a very young age, but see how he describes himself in relation to the sages of the generations first.

[Philosophypsych]

@Philosophypsych A little humility will go a long way.

The Kamarna also writes about learning kabbalah at a very young age, but see how he describes himself in relation to the sages of the generations first.

Are you confusing passion for arrogance?
I don't think I'm any better than any of you, I don't think I'm specifically knowledgeable either! On the contrary if anything I know how vast kabbalah is and how whatever I learned or will learn won't even scratch the surface of what's out there...
Im just very passionate about the fact that it's a central role in Yiddishkeit, and that without any knowledge of it's inyanim you truly miss out on a whole dimension of עבודת השם whether it's in your tfilah, understanding of Chumash, or אגדות חזל, and שבת&  מועדים take on new meaning.
But I keep coming across individuals like yourself and EliJelly and I personally got that attitude towards kabbalah when I was in yeshivah as well, and so maybe I came across to harsh, but I don't think it's arrogance, I hope not.

[imayid2]

It’s impossible to properly comprehend so many basic sforim, not to mention  ספרי חסידות, without knowing some basics of Kabbalah

[imayid2]

If you learn the history of kabbalah you'll know that kabbalah has gone through many stages in it's development, from Geonim to rishoshim, chasidei Ashkenaz, abulafia, tzfas, shabsai tzvi ימ"ש,  Italian mekubalim, etc...so you always have to take it in context, The ש"ך was 5 years older then shabsai tzvi, and when he's advising reluctance of learning kabbalah he's most likely referring to תורת הארי..but even if not, the atmosphere at that time was what resulted in a terrible tragedy, it wasn't meant to prevent people 400 years later from having any idea of what sefiros are and what names of hashem represent...
Besides it's been accepted  ever since the 1800's that this no longer applies from the year תר'

Well said.

Rav Yisroel Elya Weintraub