Author Topic: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)  (Read 148787 times)

Offline yelped

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1040 on: March 15, 2023, 02:38:31 PM »
Are you confusing passion for arrogance?
I don't think I'm any better than any of you, I don't think I'm specifically knowledgeable either! On the contrary if anything I know how vast kabbalah is and how whatever I learned or will learn won't even scratch the surface of what's out there...
Im just very passionate about the fact that it's a central role in Yiddishkeit, and that without any knowledge of it's inyanim you truly miss out on a whole dimension of עבודת השם whether it's in your tfilah, understanding of Chumash, or אגדות חזל, and שבת&  מועדים take on new meaning.
But I keep coming across individuals like yourself and EliJelly and I personally got that attitude towards kabbalah when I was in yeshivah as well, and so maybe I came across to harsh, but I don't think it's arrogance, I hope not.
No, I think that you are. You can be passionate about something without being mevatel anyone and everyone else.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1041 on: April 14, 2023, 12:19:32 PM »
What are these "chareidi views" people speak of? Publishing pictures of women is a big one, and hearing people try explain the source and value of that rule is always extremely underwhelming (at best). I'm clearly biased on this issue, but there is plenty of evidence of pictures of women in "Chareidi" magazines and newspapers of yesteryear.

And yes, "feminists" can be right about a specific issue even if you disagree with everything else they say. And what is a feminist? What does OP think a feminist is? What does Paley think it means? First wave feminism? or second or third wave? Or maybe everyone is using terms differently and just the use of that word caused a visceral reaction from OP that may have had nothing to do with what Paley was saying.

The comments about kollel are total nothingburgers - even the most pro-kollel person will readily admit there are plenty of people smoking cigarettes and wasting their time. That's not to say all are, or even that many are, just that some are.

That comment comparing Chareidi representation in the police force to making a wife become a potato kugel was just weird and makes no sense at all.

And why is challenging conservative publications not Chareidi? Because of a preconceived notion of what he means by conservative, and what he means by "challenging."

The one area that isn't a nothingburger to me are the "bans" by gedolim. I have zero knowledge of this. If it is correct that the bans were made by them based on accurate info, then obviously that is damning. But it is well known that such bans are often made based on the gadol being fed misinformation or they are taken out of context (and often simply fabricated).
Reposting here because it's the thread where the conversation happened:

https://www.jta.org/2023/04/11/religion/in-rare-move-haredi-magazine-publishes-photo-of-a-woman-a-forgotten-donor-to-european-yeshivas

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1042 on: April 14, 2023, 02:35:43 PM »
Reposting here because it's the thread where the conversation happened:

https://www.jta.org/2023/04/11/religion/in-rare-move-haredi-magazine-publishes-photo-of-a-woman-a-forgotten-donor-to-european-yeshivas

Not sure why my post on the middle of a conversation gets the Zechus of being quoted, but I do like the hypocrisy of chachmat nashim preening at their victory after they initially attacked Safier on Twitter when he announced the article without even clicking the link to see if they published the picture.


Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1043 on: May 29, 2023, 11:54:30 PM »



Offline yitzgar

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1044 on: May 30, 2023, 08:14:09 AM »

Where was this letter back when they campaigned for everyone to join and vote?

Online mevinyavin

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1045 on: May 31, 2023, 04:54:52 AM »
Where was this letter back when they campaigned for everyone to join and vote?
Don't worry. Rav Ahron, Shlita, had campaigned like this even then. It is just that the talmidim of Rabbi Berkovits voted anyways (and will continue to do so, pashtus). Rav Ahron called Rabbi Berkovits personally to try to talk him out of it, but he was not successful.
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Offline satturn

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1046 on: May 31, 2023, 05:33:28 AM »
Don't worry. Rav Ahron, Shlita, had campaigned like this even then. It is just that the talmidim of Rabbi Berkovits voted anyways (and will continue to do so, pashtus). Rav Ahron called Rabbi Berkovits personally to try to talk him out of it, but he was not successful.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them as does almost the full gamut of Israeli charedi gedolim. The same heter allowing to vote for Gimmel etc applies here. Take the Kol Koreh and switch the word eretz hakodesh with Gimmel, and you will see that this is no different. The Knesset has reform members and is zionist. It's not just Rav Berkowitz. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky etc.
I love how the anti-group was super quiet when eretz hakodosh got them all permits to get all the american yeshiva students into the country during covid. Suddenly they all took the entry permits and gave full support to the group. Most of the Yeshivas and seminary are now getting extra funding for them and no one is saying anything against them. There has been no organization that has helped the yeshos here in israel more than eretz hakodesh. Visas, tiyulim, fighting the woman of the wall, army issues etc     
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 05:40:26 AM by satturn »

Online mevinyavin

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1047 on: May 31, 2023, 05:45:07 AM »
Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them as does almost the full gamut of Israeli charedi gedolim. The same heter allowing to vote for Gimmel etc applies here. Take the Kol Koreh and switch the word eretz hakodesh with Gimmel, and you will see that this is no different. The Knesset has reform members and is zionist. It's not just Rav Berkowitz. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky etc.
I love how the anti-group was super quiet when eretz hakodosh got them all permits to get all the american yeshiva students into the country during covid. Suddenly they all took the entry permits and gave full support to the group. Most of the Yeshivas and seminary are now getting extra funding for them and no one is saying anything against them. There has been no organization that has helped the yeshos here in israel more than eretz hakodesh. Visas, tiyulim, fighting the woman of the wall, army issues etc   
Well said. I can personally verify at least half of the above list.
When RYBs was asked about the shita listed on that kol korei, he basically said, "I understand what you are saying. But Rav Chaim said!" He acknowledged that there are those who claim Rav Chaim never said it, and/or that Rav Chaim didn't understand the context, but he denied both claims forcefully and unequivocally.
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Online rbs-g1.5

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1048 on: May 31, 2023, 06:32:55 AM »

Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them as does almost the full gamut of Israeli charedi gedolim.
SOURCE ? Other than shmuos from R' Chaim I do not think that any Israeli Gedolim publicly supported them. This was considered to be damaging for degel enough that they had pesach lerner go on the israeli radio to say that degel has nothing to do with them and any help he had from Pindrus was just as a personal freind.
I love how the anti-group was super quiet when eretz hakodosh got them all permits to get all the american yeshiva students into the country during covid. Suddenly they all took the entry permits and gave full support to the group.   
At the time there were many people that were very upset at them because they did not accept the claim that the government would not  have otherwise allowed the americans in ,rather the "IGUD"  just got themselves in between the yeshivos and the misrad hapnim .The yeshivos were forced to work with them (for a hefty fee) because there was no other way to get a visa. Some believe that if they hadn't gotten themselves involved things would have been much simpler.
The same heter allowing to vote for Gimmel etc applies here. 
Its a completely different shaila with many differences . One difference is that by elections for the government you have a government  that is controlling much of the citizens life whether they like it or not and the shaila is whether or not to get involved to save what you can. As opposed to willingly signing up as a member of an  organization in order to be able to steer some of their funds towards your interests and away from the interests of the reshaim.
Another significant difference is that in order to sign up for the wzo one has to sign a declaration that has aspects of kefira in it .No such declaration is required in order to vote for the knesset.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1049 on: May 31, 2023, 06:59:16 AM »
But Rav Chaim said!" He acknowledged that there are those who claim Rav Chaim never said it, and/or that Rav Chaim didn't understand the context, but he denied both claims forcefully and unequivocally.
How did he know this?
Did he personally speak to Rav Chaim about it?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1050 on: May 31, 2023, 07:01:25 AM »
Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them as does almost the full gamut of Israeli charedi gedolim. The same heter allowing to vote for Gimmel etc applies here. Take the Kol Koreh and switch the word eretz hakodesh with Gimmel, and you will see that this is no different. The Knesset has reform members and is zionist. It's not just Rav Berkowitz. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky etc.

From Rabbi Feldmans article in the new Dialogue on the subject





Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1051 on: May 31, 2023, 07:16:28 AM »
Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them
SOURCE???

Online yfr bachur

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1052 on: May 31, 2023, 07:28:13 AM »
SOURCE???
AFAIK The only source for him not supporting are the same people who claim the Rav Chaim also didnt really support Degel, it's all his chatzer v'chdomeh


This is one of the thorny subjects where the question is essentially how much we need to "help hashem" get things done. Do we do the more lechatchila option that may lead to bedieved results, or do we hold our noses and do the bedieved option to try and get more lechatchila results.

At the time there were many people that were very upset at them because they did not accept the claim that the government would not  have otherwise allowed the americans in ,rather the "IGUD"  just got themselves in between the yeshivos and the misrad hapnim .The yeshivos were forced to work with them (for a hefty fee) because there was no other way to get a visa. Some believe that if they hadn't gotten themselves involved things would have been much simpler.
Based on my experiences here at the time, I believe that this belief is heavily influenced by what you opinion was of "Eretz Hakodesh" to begin with... but YEMV

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1053 on: May 31, 2023, 07:34:11 AM »
AFAIK The only source for him not supporting are the same people who claim the Rav Chaim also didnt really support Degel, it's all his chatzer v'chdomeh
I’m confused. I would assume he did not support it unless I knew he did. So is there a recording or letter to that effect?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1054 on: May 31, 2023, 07:36:49 AM »
why is this in dispute? Where are the letters, can we see them?Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this? What’s with the wishy washiness? Where is a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?

Offline bochur22

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1055 on: May 31, 2023, 07:51:34 AM »
Rav Chaim Kanievsky fully supported them as does almost the full gamut of Israeli charedi gedolim. The same heter allowing to vote for Gimmel etc applies here. Take the Kol Koreh and switch the word eretz hakodesh with Gimmel, and you will see that this is no different. The Knesset has reform members and is zionist. It's not just Rav Berkowitz. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzsky etc.
I love how the anti-group was super quiet when eretz hakodosh got them all permits to get all the american yeshiva students into the country during covid. Suddenly they all took the entry permits and gave full support to the group. Most of the Yeshivas and seminary are now getting extra funding for them and no one is saying anything against them. There has been no organization that has helped the yeshos here in israel more than eretz hakodesh. Visas, tiyulim, fighting the woman of the wall, army issues etc   
The above article quoted by @imayid2 from Reb Aron Feldman discusses all of this (and more). Definitely not a simple issue.

Online mevinyavin

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1056 on: May 31, 2023, 09:01:03 AM »
Rav Ahron made it quite clear that he didn't believe Rav Chaim said it. He spoke to Rabbi Berkovits and was not convinced. On the other hand, Rabbi Berkovits was not talked out of promoting EH either.
Just follow your Rav. What else is new...
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1057 on: May 31, 2023, 09:03:31 AM »
Rav Ahron made it quite clear that he didn't believe Rav Chaim said it. He spoke to Rabbi Berkovits and was not convinced.
He wasn’t convinced that he didn’t say it. That sounds a bit strange.

How did he first get convinced that he did say it?

Online mevinyavin

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1058 on: May 31, 2023, 09:21:01 AM »
He wasn’t convinced that he didn’t say it. That sounds a bit strange.

How did he first get convinced that he did say it?
Bit ambiguous here, but I'll answer what I think you are asking: Rav Ahron was not talked out of his own conviction that Rav Chaim did not say it, or alternatively, he suspects that Rav Chaim did not have all the information / was told something not true. Moreover, Rabbi Berkovits was not convinced to stop promoting them.
Rabbi Berkovits did not share the results of the conversation with us, but he said that opponents believe Rav Chaim did not say it or that he was not asked properly. What we do know is that Rav Ahron called to talk about it, and neither of them changed their minds as a result of the conversation.
As to what Rabbi Berkovits's source is, I don't know. I can ask around to see if anyone knows for sure... but I don't have the chutzpa to ask him straight out, even for all of you. (The list of things I do need to discuss with him is always longer than the time I have to discuss them with him.)
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #1059 on: May 31, 2023, 09:26:37 AM »
As to what Rabbi Berkovits's source is, I don't know. I can ask around to see if anyone knows for sure...
Great. Keep us updated because until then lots of people are extremely uncomfortable with this whole thing because:
Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this? a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?